Wednesday, November 16, 2016

Hypothetical Contest Results


  • Let's say you played a game of stroke play golf. Lowest 18 hole score wins. After the game was over, it was decided that rather than stroke play, the officials would judge the winner by match play (number of holes won) instead.
  • Or you were a baseball team that was going to play seven game series. But after the series was over, it was determined by the umpire that the winner would be the team with the most overall runs, not the team who won the most games. 
  • Or you were a hockey team who was playing a hockey game. At the end of the game, the officials decided that the team that had the most shots on goal would prevail, rather than the team that scored the most goals. 

In all of these cases, it would be argued that changing the rules after the contest was over, would be unfair. Obviously these arguments would be correct. 

More to the point, in all of these cases, wouldn't the participants actually map out a different strategy? Wouldn't you play stroke play and match play differently? Wouldn't you play differently if there was a seven game series for total runs, rather than a race to four game wins? If the rules stated that the hockey teams were judged on shots on goals, rather than actual goals, clearly they may play the game differently.

Same can certainly be true for a Presidential election. If the rules state that you win the election by winning individual states (or districts) and the Electoral College Votes that come with those wins, then that is how you map out your strategy. If the rules were that the candidate who won the popular national vote, won the contest, then you would certainly use a different strategy. 

If not for the Electoral College, would candidates really spend time in places like Iowa, Nevada, or New Hampshire? Nope. Probably wouldn't spend much time in Wisconsin, Colorado, or Minnesota, either. They would likely advertise heavy in population centers, and each candidate might spend most of their time providing red meat for their own base. A Democrat spending time in deep blue areas of the country, while the Republican spending time in deep red areas. 

Now we can argue all day long about which of these scenarios actually serves a better purpose. My argument is in favor of the electoral college, just because I do believe having several competitive states with different sets of demographics keeps candidates more honest than having both candidates preach to their choir. But either way, the reality is that you cannot judge a hypothetical regarding a popular vote victory, when the rules of the contest require a strategy to win individual battleground states. 

Those were the rules. Both candidates knew those rule. Both candidates planned their strategy around those rules. The only fair way to judge the outcome of this particular contest is to see how the two candidates fared according to the rules in place. The results were simple 306-232 for Donald Trump. That's a significant victory. 

There was no other contest played. There was no strategy by either candidate to win a popular vote. Trying to create new rules that neither candidate was prepared for or either candidate worked towards is an exercise in irrelevance and red herring. Had it been a popular vote election, then both candidates would have played a different strategy and we would have had different popular vote results. But there is little reason to believe that we would have seen a different winner at the end of the day. 


91 comments:

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

They would likely advertise heavy in population centers, and each candidate might spend most of their time providing red meat for their own base.

I read this and you make a case for the electoral college, because the people who live in the states with lower population should get more political power than those in the more populated states.

I won't take a couple hundred words. I believe in the principal, majority rule. One man, one vote. I think this should be used in the only national election.

The lower populated states get two senators, as the more populated states. That is not "democratic", because we're a republic, with separate states.

The legislative branch has more power, than the President. That principal was included in the Constitution, so the President could not be a dictator. So I think that the fly over states get their power in the Senate.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

By the way. I've never liked the electoral college. It's not one man one vote. Like I said. It's for the Presidency.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

The significant victory is not democratic. Clinton leads by almost 2,000,000 votes. About 2%.

Your vote is worth about five times mine. You might like that, but is it democratic?

wphamilton said...

Roger, none of that addresses his point that there was no nationwide popular vote to win in the first place, because the contest wasn't for a nationwide popular vote.

Trump DID win the popular vote, because he had a majority vote in each of the states, which cast a majority of Elector votes. Acknowledging that you don't like the EC, the fact remains that for the popular vote, as defined in this election, Trump won it. Clinton on the other hand, won California.

The problem with the Democrats' obsession on a fictional win in a "popular vote" that was never contested, is that as long as they delude themselves this way they'll never fix the real problems that led to their defeat.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

wp, the popular vote gives Clinton approximately 1,600,000 more votes.

Majority rule should apply.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Judge sets hearing Friday on delay in Trump University case
By JOSH GERSTEIN 11/15/16 02:03 PM EST
A federal judge has scheduled a hearing for Friday afternoon on President-elect Donald Trump's request to delay a trial set to open just after Thanksgiving over alleged fraud in marketing of the Trump University real estate seminar program.

U.S. District Court Judge Gonzalo Curiel issued a brief order Tuesday setting the Friday hearing in his San Diego courtroom, giving Trump's lawyers a chance to argue in person about why the trial set for jury selection on Nov. 28 should be postponed.

Trump's legal team filed a formal motion Saturday arguing that the "critical and all-consuming" duties of preparing for the presidency merit putting the trial off until sometime after the inauguration in January. Trump's lawyers also proposed that his testimony be taken through a videotaped deposition, rather than in-person attendance at the trial. Trump could sit for such a deposition before the inauguration, if necessary, Trump's attorneys said.

Lawyers for the former Trump University students pressing the fraud case want the trial to go forward as scheduled, even if it means forgoing any live or additional testimony by Trump. If Trump doesn't want to show up in person, both sides can rely on more than 10 hours of deposition testimony Trump has already given on the issue, attorneys for the plaintiffs argued.

Curiel has urged both sides to consider a settlement in the case, but such a deal could be complex, involving the case set for trial later this month, a related case also pending in federal court in San Diego and a similar suit brought by New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman in state court.

The suits generally allege that Trump University marketed its $1500 weekend seminars and $35,000 mentorship programs by falsely claiming that instructors were hand picked by Trump and by suggesting that the program was part of an accredited university.

Trump's lawyers say any misrepresentations were mere "puffery" that doesn't amount to fraud. Trump has also repeatedly argued that the vast majority of students indicated they were satisfied with the training, with many completing glowing evaluations at the time.

Josh Gerstein is a senior reporter for POLITICO.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/htmlview?sle=true#gid=19

This is the vote count site.
62,743,362 Clinton
61,436,813 Trump

Approximately 1.3 million.

And no, there are not 3 million illegal immigrants voted.
Infowars

Commonsense said...

The majority of people in the United States live in places outside the population centers of the media universe.

Roger would disenfranchise the majority of Americans in the name of democracy.

Anonymous said...

The problem with the Democrats' obsession on a fictional win in a "popular vote" that was never contested, is that as long as they delude themselves this way they'll never fix the real problems that led to their defeat.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

exactly. and i'm OK with that.

and if you think they're obsessed and unhinged now, just wait until inauguration day.

Anonymous said...


”Hillary got the majority! She was the more popular candidate!!!!”

I got curious. I decided to find out how many of the total votes went to Hillary Rodham Clinton.

So I went down through Politico’s state-by-state vote tallies and added up all the third party candidates’ votes to see what I came up with.

Six million, seventy-thousand, eight-hundred and two people voted for one of the many third-party candidates running for President. To put it into perspective, that’s more than the combined population of Houston and Chicago.

That means that the total number of people who voted against Hillary Clinton was 65,682,480 people.

In other words, Hillary Clinton received 47.6% of the popular vote.

For those keeping score, that means the majority of votes cast did not, in fact, go to Hillary Clinton.

Neither Donald Trump nor Hillary Clinton won a majority of votes.

But our Presidential elections are not determined by majority of votes. Rather, they are determined by the majority of Electors.

We do not live in a pure Democracy. We live in a Republic. Our Presidential elections are not based on majoritarian rule. Voters were casting their ballots to determine which candidate would receive their state’s Electoral votes.

Donald Trump received the most Electoral votes. So he won the election.

It’s not rocket science, kids.

http://patriotretort.com/run-numbers/

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

A very weak minded distortion of the popular vote argument.

Because we had a third party candidate, neither one of the candidates received over 50% of popular vote. Hillary Clinton received more votes than Donald Trump.

The current numbers are:


62,825,754 Clinton

61,486,735 Trump

1,339,019 Difference

Clinton 2.1% Lead

My argument is that the candidate that receives a majority of the votes cast. The only national vote, for the President of the United States, should be determined by which candidate gets the most votes.

Artificial lines drawn on a map, should not determine which candidate wins.

I have always been against the electoral college, since I was probably 10 years old.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

CS, you are the one who wants to disenfranchise the majority of the people of the United States, who voted.

Commonsense said...

My argument is that the candidate that receives a majority of the votes cast.

You argument still fails because a majority of the voters didn't vote for Clinton.

To project your proposal to a hypothetical popular election with 3 strong candidates, a person could be elected president with only 33.1 percent of the vote.

That means 2/3 of the country hates the president that was elected.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I am well aware that we are not going to amend the Constitution to get rid of the electoral college .

It takes a 2/3 majority in both houses of the legislative branch, and support of 3/4 of the states.

But I don't think that we should retain an outdated Constitutional requirement.

KD, LOL Change the Rules , ok go for it Liberals said...

Each State has a voice in election the president, those with more people have a bigger voice then those in smaller states like Kansas.

30 States I believe it is voted for Trump
20 States for the LOSER

HB wants those states like Californicated to have 199 electorial votes, she calls that "Fair".

The real issue is she needs to bitch , not about the losing message, but about how the system failed to elect BLeachBitch.

HB on election night posted world currencies and US Stock Markets dive, she did it with great glee, good thing he has no money , the USD is stronger on Trump Win and US Stocks Stronger on Trump win, WE THE PEOPLE ARE STRONGER TOGETHER.

Anonymous said...

Roger Amick said...
A very weak minded distortion of the popular vote argument.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

only if you're weak minded enough (or sadz enough) to dispense with this:

"We do not live in a pure Democracy. We live in a Republic. Our Presidential elections are not based on majoritarian rule. Voters were casting their ballots to determine which candidate would receive their state’s Electoral votes."

twist this and distort this as much as your anger drives you to, but it cannot be denied that the electoral vote, guided by the principles of a representative republic is what matters here.

and as you assclowns have even chosen to dedicate a website to - it's time to 'move on.'

tantrums are for small children.


KD, Social Security Saved by Trump said...

The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures."

HB, list the votes you have and the states you have that will change the US Constitution for Polosi, or is this just another stupid liberal baby diaper pin wearing moment?

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

O.k.,let's address the majority argument.

I think that the candidate who gets the most votes, no matter how many candidates are running for the office.

One man, one vote. Every single vote should count!

Right now, the votes of 1,339,019 do not count.

That's not right.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I deleted that comment.

I don't want to sink to your level.

I see again that you are not capable of writing a grammatically correct sentence, nor can you not write anything, without childish insults.


Right now, the votes of 1,339,019 do not count.

That's not right.

KD, Liberals why did your message fail said...

they'll never fix the real problems that led to their defeat." WP

Are you under the assumption that the Liberals are doing any kind of real soul searching on why they lost the Nation in this election.

900 lower Held offices have shifted to Republican control Since Obama first took office.

He has lost the US Senate, He has lost the US House, He has lost ever more Governorships.

The liberal message of "free shit for those that interlope" is done, it has not worked , thanks to honest debate.

Anonymous said...



actually rog, in retrospect, please do not 'move on.'

please continue the rioting, the tantrums, the threats on trumps life, the wishes to rape his wife, please continue IT ALL.

with each insanely childish act you re-affirm to the nation that we made the right choice.

and oh yeah, please put that moose-limb brotherhood loving, hamas-supporting, jew hating, shitstain keith ellison in charge of the DNC. that will be like the cherry on top.

KD, The end of the Interloper Class said...

I think "

HB

Ok, so you have your vote.

I think we should keep the EC.

I have my vote, a tie.

So the USC stands STRONGER TOGETHER.


Next issue, blacks own less homes today then before Obama took office, why?

Anonymous said...


Right now, the votes of 1,339,019 do not count.

That's not right.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

wp has undertaken the arduous task of schooling you on this issue repeatedly. the man has the patience of job.

if you still don't get it that's your problem, not ours.

in the immortal words of your dear leader 0linsky:

"You don't like a particular policy or a particular president? Then argue for your position. Go out there and win an election. Push to change it. But don't break it. Don't break what our predecessors spent over two centuries building. That's not being faithful to what this country's about."

Commonsense said...

CS, you are the one who wants to disenfranchise the majority of the people of the United States, who voted.

Your proposal would in effect mean only the votes in the major population centers would really count.

The voters in Nebraska could say home because their votes wouldn't count one way or the other.

It would lead to the balkanization of the country and the eventual destruction of the union.

KD , More Poor Blacks In the USA today said...

wp has undertaken the arduous task of schooling you on this issue repeatedly. the man has the patience of job."

Yes WP does.


Next issue, why has the savings of Blacks Since Obama took office dropped like a rock to historic lows?

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

KD, Social Security Saved by Trump said...
The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures."

That is factually incorrect.

A two-third majority of both houses of the legislative branch.

Then it requires that the legislations of the three-fourth of the states pass the amendment. They are rare.

The call for a Constitutional convention has never been used. The reason is, that most people don't want to leave the entire constitution open for amendment.

Commonsense said...

I think that the candidate who gets the most votes, no matter how many candidates are running for the office.

Which means you're OK with a candidate winning 33.1, 25.1, or 10.1 percent of the vote being elected president.

That is your opinion, but don't dishonestly say that you are for "majority rules".

Commonsense said...

KD is correct, you misread article V.

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

KD, Trump WON Blue Collar Middle income voters said...

snowflakes are smashing windows, beating up Trump supporters and calling for the assassination of Trump and the rape of his wife. If you've ever wondered how France's Reign of Terror happened, observe the anti-Trump protests — the main result of which is to convince people who had misgivings about voting for Trump that they did the right thing. " Ann Coulter


I would love to see her or Laura Ingraham as Press Sec. they are both really smart, conservative and well educated.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

rrp, I stated clearly that I disagreed with wp and why.

You just can't restrain yourself. Olinsky is pure genius.

CS, I don't think that Nebraska should render my vote meaningless.

Commonsense said...

So you want the render Nebraska's vote meaningless.

KD, Trump Won, Tax cuts are coming soon said...

Your vote is not meaningless, your Candidate WON in CA.

Party in that fact.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof

The "or" made his comments incorrect, and yours too.

We have never held a Constitutional convention to amend the Constitution.

KD, Less Blacks Own a business today then when Obama first took office said...

IF your team loss this election then put on your diaper pin and damage business and block commercial routes, hurt your fellow American that works, that will show the voters of Trump

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Blogger Commonsense said...
So you want the render Nebraska's vote meaningless.

No. Each one and every vote should count.

Look, I understand the federalist argument. In the case of the vote for the President, it's just not right.

KD, Liberalism defeated by each vote and voter said...

Ever vote does count, has been counted and your ideology lost.


The Winner laid out some simple points:

Work and get ahead
One has to work to have what they want, no one is going to "transfer wealth"
Save, TRUMP will assist in that by dropping the tax rates on all income produced
The US Military and The Police of this nation are not "Despicable"

The free ride is over, so , get out of your basement, get off the streets, get a job and let's earn it.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I've been deeply interested in the Constitution since I was very young. I got straight A grades in civics, history and read the encyclopedia my parents bought, all 25 volumes.

The word nerd has my picture in the dictionary. 😁😁

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

CS, I see that you are embarrassed by KD. 😱😱😱😱😱😱😈

KD, Trump WON said...

When President Trump gets into Office, I want these things done in his first 100 Days.

Repeal and Replace the ObamaCare law of the land, ( lol), without a mandate that requires purchase .

Reduce all taxes on all tax payers on Earned Income, Unearned Income (If you don't know what that is , you should look it up) and eliminate the death tax

Appoint a new USSC Judge and 100 other lower judges

That for me is a WIN.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I have a doctor's appointment at 11:55. So I have to get more sleep.

It's been interesting today.

And yes for rrb, 1,644 days. One day at a time.😇

KD, The Winner Trump gets to make the new rules said...

Having lost the debate on facts, like a good diaper PIN wearing liberal she had to get personal.


42 Percent of Woman voted for Trump, pre election the press told us with great glee that number would be more like 20 %.

Blacks and Hispanics voted at a higher rate for the Winner.

The press told us they would never ever vote for him.

Shall we now get on with the business of actually supporting this President and the Winning Agenda.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

"There is nothing in the record of the past two years when both Houses of Congress have been controlled by the Republican Party which can lead any person to believe that those promises will be fulfilled in the future. They follow the Hitler line - no matter how big the lie; repeat it often enough and the masses will regard it as truth." - John F. Kennedy

KD, Trump WON BIG, coat tails too said...

Federal Reserve Chair Janet Yellen said Thursday that an interest rate increase likely will be appropriate “relatively soon” Yellen



Yep, in 8 years the Federal Reserve has raised the Federal Rate, once, and by only 25 basis points.

So why the rush now, well, it is easy, the coming rise in income, wealth creation, jobs and wage growth.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Megyn Kelly says Donald Trump tried unsuccessfully to give her gifts, including a free stay at one of his hotels, as part of what she called his pattern of trying to influence news coverage of his presidential campaign.

In her memoir "Settle for More," to be released Tuesday, Kelly says Trump may have gotten a pre-debate tip about her first question, in which she confronted him with his critical comments about women. Her book also details the insults and threats she received after Trump's tirades objecting to her reporting. The Associated Press obtained an advance copy of the book Saturday.

Kelly, host of Fox News Channel's "The Kelly Report," said Trump routinely attempted to gain favorable treatment from other journalists and commentators.

"This is actually one of the untold stories of the 2016 campaign: I was not the only journalist to whom Trump offered gifts clearly meant to shape coverage," Kelly said. He also attempted to woo them with praise, she said, adding, "This is smart, because the media is full of people whose egos need stroking."

"Trump tried to work the refs, and some of the refs responded," she said.

When it became obvious that some reporters were "in the tank" for Trump, she alleges in one chapter, "certain TV hosts" would work with the candidate in advance on occasional Trump criticism so they would appear unbiased. She didn't identify them by name or media outlet.

Resisting Trump's attempts to buy her goodwill with an offer to comp her "girls' weekend" stay at his downtown New York City hotel or fly her and her husband to visit his Mar-a-Lago estate in Florida was an easy ethical decision, Kelly wrote.

Harder still was rejecting the ratings bonanza that the colorful GOP contender could deliver with his "unscripted, unguarded" approach that made for great TV but was the equivalent of "television crack cocaine," Kelly wrote.

She and her producer agreed they had to provide balance and be judicious in their coverage, asserting this was not a "directive to cover Trump negatively or to ignore him."

It was at the first GOP primary debate last August that Kelly questioned Trump about derogatory comments he'd made about women. The day before, Trump had called Fox News executive Bill Sammon to say he had heard that Kelly's first question would be a pointed one aimed at him, she wrote.

"'How could he know that?' I wondered," Kelly said, not answering the question but clearing her Fox colleagues on the debate team of any suspicion of leaking it to him. Trump was agitated out of proportion in the phone call, she wrote, calling it "bizarre behavior, especially for a man who wanted the nuclear codes."

KD, Sen Chuck Schumer Wants Trump Tax Cuts said...

Senate Democratic leader-in-waiting Chuck Schumer is plotting to reach across the aisle next year with a pragmatic agenda he insists can get through a bitterly divided Congress.

"We have a moral obligation, even beyond the economy and politics, to avoid gridlock and get the country to work again," the New York senator said in an interview last week. "We have to get things done."






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It won’t be easy. If Democrats manage to win the Senate -- which Schumer insists is still "more likely than not," despite narrowing polls over the past two weeks -- the party likely will control the chamber by a very slim margin. The Senate could even end up split 50-50, with the vice president having to cast deciding votes. And Democrats are unlikely to hold the chamber beyond 2018, with that year’s Senate map stacked against them.




If Schumer’s former rival, Hillary Clinton, wins and he’s running the Senate..."

the title of the piece is so refreshing, Now that Trump actually won.

"Schumer Sees Path to Senate Tax Deal With Clinton in White House
Steven T. Dennis"

I am sure , Morally , Senator Schumer will be keeping his word.


C.H. Truth said...

I've been deeply interested in the Constitution since I was very young

But yet, you don't seem to understand that we are a Republic or a representative democracy, rather than a pure democracy. We are also a constitutional democracy (which is to say that ultimately a court can cite the constitution to overrule a law or even a referendum).

Either way, there are two separate arguments that you are attempting to roll into one.

1) That you believe we should elect a President based on popular vote rather than electoral college vote.

2) That because of that, you believe Hillary should be President (or would have won had it been a popular vote).

Again, you seem to (as you generally do) miss the tangible logical problem with your argument. You are judging an irrelevant associated statistic (popular vote) in a Electoral College election, and giving it weight it simply doesn't deserve (because it had no legal bearing and for that reason neither candidate cared about popular vote).

The fact that both candidates focused on winning the electoral college vote (just like the golfer focusing on winning stroke play rather than match play) means that their strategy was in place to win that way. 1.5 billion was spent trying to win the ECV. Not a dime was spent trying to win the popular vote.

KD, Harry Ried Rule in Full Effect said...

Majority Rule,,, HB,,, ok

So with the US Senate and US House in the hands of the majority, they should get everything that they want and the minority must, by your ill logic have no say.

I do want to thank Harry Ried for giving the US Senate the "Ried Rule", you know the one, that 51 Senators can pass anything they want.

wphamilton said...

"'How could he know that?' I wondered," Kelly said,

That the first question would be pointed one aimed at Trump? You'd have to be a moron to NOT know that. I as much as anyone was rooting for Trump to crash and burn, but even so I was disgusted by the attack nature of the so-called debate questions.

Looking forward, if I were Trump in 2019 running for re-election, there is no way I'd participate in another one of these "debates". I'd have some of my reality TV contacts set up a slick production, gather up some real policy questions from experts who actually know something about it, and publish the questions in advance. Mikes timed to the second. If the challenger doesn't approve of any of that, he or she doesn't have to show up.

wphamilton said...

2) That because of that, you believe Hillary should be President (or would have won had it been a popular vote).

CH, Clinton and her supporters just don't want to admit failure, and this is a logical extension of that. Reality will set in after Trump assumes office. I expect that mindset to lose out next March when the purge picks up steam.

Myballs said...

The media are doubling down on their self absorbed arrogance that helped elect Trump in the first place.

They're pissed because he ditched them to have dinner with his family, pretending that they're part of his protection. Yeah right. Hi had ten secret service vehicles there was with him. They're his protection.

The media still haven't learned that they're the tail not the dog.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

It is tradition that when sports teams win championships, they visit the White House as part of the celebration. All of the major professional sports teams do it as well as college and women’s sports, but that may be over, at least for the NBA. Believing the media hype and Hillary Clinton’s bullshit that Donald Trump is a racist, prominent professional basketball players have indicated they won’t visit the White House while he’s in office.

On Thursday, NBA Champs the Cleveland Cavaliers hung out at the White House for Obama’s last team celebration before he leaves office. It may also be the last time an NBA team visits, or at least until Trump is gone.


The unifier

Commonsense said...

I think that's more the NBA's players to explain to Trump than Trump to explain to the players.

But it's their right not to attend as it is the people's right not to watch them.

See NFL.

C.H. Truth said...

prominent professional basketball players have indicated they won’t visit the White House while he’s in office.

And if you actually believe that this makes Trump look bad, rather than further enhance the growing sentiment that professional athletes need to play their game and keep their politics to themselves...

Then you are truly a fool.

This is nothing more than the ever growing "social bullying" by a bunch of whiny crybaby sore losers who think they are way more important than they are.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

But yet, you don't seem to understand that we are a Republic or a representative democracy, rather than a pure democracy. We are also a constitutional democracy (which is to say that ultimately a court can cite the constitution to overrule a law or even a referendum). As expected you assumed that I do not understand that we are a Republic, (Capital R) and yes that the courts can understand any law that the court believes that the laws do not confirm to the Constitution. You assumed incorrectly that I do not understand these points.

Either way, there are two separate arguments that you are attempting to roll into one.

1) That you believe we should elect a President based on popular vote rather than electoral college vote.

2) That because of that, you believe Hillary should be President (or would have won had it been a popular vote).
I think that Al Gore and Hillary Clinton should have been our President. And if the situation was reversed, I would be standing on the same plank.

Again, you seem to (as you generally do) miss the tangible logical problem with your argument. You are judging an irrelevant associated statistic (popular vote) in a Electoral College election, and giving it weight it simply doesn't deserve (because it had no legal bearing and for that reason neither candidate cared about popular vote). You are claiming that there is a tangible logical problem in my argument. You are the one missing my argument. You claim that the popular vote is irrelevant and has no legal bearing. Your argument is not logical. I believe that the popular vote should be the underlying principle in opposition to the Electoral collage system. The electoral college was designed 240 years ago under different circumstances. I think a democratic Republic should consider the opinions of the people as expressed in the ballot box should be the ruling of our country.


The fact that both candidates focused on winning the electoral college vote (just like the golfer focusing on winning stroke play rather than match play) means that their strategy was in place to win that way. 1.5 billion was spent trying to win the ECV. Not a dime was spent trying to win the popular vote. The candidates both understood the electoral college system and ran their campaigns with that it was the system required. But even without that, one candidate got more than a million more votes, that are rendered irrelevant. I think that is contrary to the underlying principles of a democratic Republic.I believe that every vote should have the same weight.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I did not respond to number one.

Since we can't edit, I'm not going to delete and start over again.

1) That you believe we should elect a President based on popular vote rather than electoral college vote. Yes that is what I believe and that the Constitution should be amended to remove the electoral college. One man, one vote. Artificial borders should not give some votes relevance and some do not. I believe in majority rule, within the limits of the Constitution.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

On the road again.

Later folks. Have a great day.

Commonsense said...

They are more than artificial borders. They are sovereign states with their own unique culture in a federal system.

You're proposing the cultures of California and New York are the only cultures that should have a say in running the nation.

I don't agree and would resist the usurpation of my vote.

caliphate4vr said...

The Two Americas of 2016

Myballs said...

So headbaked wants CA and NY to count even more than they do. Like it or not, every state gets to have a say. That's also the reason why every state gets the same number of senators, regardless that CA has ten times the population of ND. He is, as is typical for him, only looking at this on the surface and not doing any sort of due diligence analysis.

And btw, i live in western NY. We never have a say in who our gov is. We get stuck with whomever NYC wants.

caliphate4vr said...

LMAO Queef Uberdouche has farther over the bend than Roger

These minimum next 4 years are going to be so much fun....

Commonsense said...

And btw, i live in western NY. We never have a say in who our gov is. We get stuck with whomever NYC wants.

Which encapsulates at the state level what HB wants to impose on the national level.

Myballs said...

Trump won 3084 counties. Clinton won 57.

Let that sink in for a moment.

C.H. Truth said...

You are claiming that there is a tangible logical problem in my argument. You are the one missing my argument. You claim that the popular vote is irrelevant and has no legal bearing. Your argument is not logical. I believe that the popular vote should be the underlying principle in opposition to the Electoral collage system.

Roger, how is my argument not logical?

It's tangibly absolutely 100% factually correct. The popular vote is totally irrelevant and has no legal bearing in our Presidential elections.

The fact that you don't like that or that you would like to change it... doesn't change the fundamental issue that it's 100% factually correct.


Further more the country was founded as Republic to promote state rights, and guard against one or two "bigger states" deciding the fate of the entire nation. This is still a reasonable, current, and very valid argument. Moreover, it's an argument that will continue to carry the day if you happen to live in any state not named New York or California.

The very reason why the Electoral College will stand is "because" the arguments for state autonomy and state rights are still valid in 2016 and that most states will push back against any attempts to change it.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

CH, I completely understand. But for the only national vote, I believe that we should amend the constitution. I believe that every single vote should be relevant.

I know it would not pass. But I'm not going to change my mind on this.

C.H. Truth said...

So Roger -

Speaking as a Democrat and showing us how Democrats think:

Are you suggesting we judge contests by the rules in place, or by alternate hypothetical rules that are not in place?

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I judge the rules written 240 years ago, and like other portions of the Constitution, it should be amended, so each vote is equal.

How many times do I have to repeat myself until you can understand?

wphamilton said...

Roger there's something that I don't understand in your arguments.

You know that the national popular vote is irrelevant to how we currently elect Presidents. You know that it would take an amendment to the US Constitution to change that, and you realize that it's not going to happen. You acknowledge that our States comprise a Republic, and elect the President on that basis.

Acknowledging all of that, you feel like it's unfair and would like to see that changed some day. OK so far, everyone has an opinion. But in that context, WHY do you keep bringing up the popular vote count and claiming that Clinton "won" it? When you acknowledge that it's meaningless in practice, meaningless in the Constitution, and meaningless in the nature of a Republic, what is your intended meaning when you say "Clinton won" the meaningless popular vote?

BTW, Trump won the popular vote.

C.H. Truth said...

How many times do I have to repeat myself until you can understand?

Quite obviously...regardless of the question... you will continue to "repeat yourself" till you are blue in the face. Even if "repeating yourself" does not answer the question being posed.

So I will take your answer to mean... as a Democrat, you simply don't understand the question.

KD, US media get cryons and baby diaper pins said...

You're proposing the cultures of California and New York are the only cultures that should have a say in running the nation."

HyperBolic did say that CA in his opinion should have 199 Electorial Votes.


He also told us he is leaving the USA, a total lie on his part and that of like 20 other Leftist.


LOL, Speaking on draining the Swamp, I could not be more happy with a real man, and soon to be President Trump, putting the media on notice, you are the shit we scrap off our shoes, not stop whinning.

KD, 306 Trump,,, wait, how many, omg a beat down said...

But for the only national vote, I believe that we should amend the constitution. "

You had 8 years, did nothing , but what liberals do best, Bitch.


Keep going , I quote a great man.


" These minimum next 4 years are going to be so much fun...." Cali

KD, 306 to 232, that is a beating said...

you will continue to "repeat yourself" till you are blue in the face." CHT Pun

CHT you are so kind to that liberal dumb ass, HB, believe ALGORE AND HILLARY should have been President, no shit. But aguing with the outcome after the fact is just stupid.

You know he is nutz.

wphamilton said...

Al Gore maybe he should have been, but his loss was ultimately his own fault for trying to game the system. Gore had the right in Florida to call for a recount of the entire state, and had he done so he might as easily have won the recount as Bush, and without the court challenges and seemingly unfair procedures.

Anyone still on Hillary's bandwagon is living in a fantasy world. All they have left is their "leverage" against political insiders and their hundreds of millions in cash and assets. Without Democratic control over any of the Federal government the value of that leverage is fading fast. I wouldn't bet the farm on them hanging on to all of the Foundation money either. It really is time to move on.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

wp: "You know that the national popular vote is irrelevant to how we currently elect Presidents. You know that it would take an amendment to the US Constitution to change that, and you realize that it's not going to happen. You acknowledge that our States comprise a Republic, and elect the President on that basis."

I acknowledge that in every post. I'm an advocate of amending the Constitution. I know that the odds are astronomic against it happening.

And the reason, I keep making, each vote should matter as much as any other. The Electoral college does not do that. I will say it one more time.

The candidate that gets the most votes in the one and only national election we have, should win the election. Republican or Democrat, of any third party if we see one. Not likely, but it should apply then too.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

62,843,678 Clinton
61,495,283 Trump

1,348,593. Difference
2.1%

wphamilton said...

Roger, I was only summarizing your position, and you confirm it. But now, what about the question?

When you acknowledge that it's meaningless in practice, meaningless in the Constitution, and meaningless in the nature of a Republic, what is your intended meaning when you say "Clinton won" the meaningless popular vote?

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Are you suggesting we judge contests by the rules in place, or by alternate hypothetical rules that are not in place?

Well duh. We have to accept the results under the rules in place.

Some people are trying to give the members of the Electoral college the freedom to vote as they want.

I don't agree.

KansasDemocrat said...

Gore forgot to win his home state, that was his undoing.

Hillary she forgot the workers that make the nation run, Trump a Billionaire of his own making found them, mobilized them and won.


Nancy Polosey is from a district that the average income per house hold is $120,000.

Tim Ryan is from a district in Ohio that the average income per house hold is $55,000.


Given the decimation of the Dem party, who is better position to Help the Democrat Party move back to the RIGHT and back to being a little more moderate?

Indy Voter said...

Your math sucks. A 1.3 million vote difference is only about 1% of the total votes.

Indy Voter said...

Members of the Electoral College CAN vote for whoever they want. I think the only restriction is that they can't cast votes for a president and vice president from the same state.

Indy Voter said...

Clinton won a heck of a lot more counties than that. She won 14 in New Mexico alone.

You gotta stop reading your fake news feeds.

wphamilton said...

I figured he meant 2% of either candidate's votes although even that 2% would still be way high. It doesn't matter though, because that stat is meaningless.

It's not even a majority either, which means that she did not in fact "win" the popular vote, even if there were such a thing to win. Plurality is not a "win", only majority is "win".

wphamilton said...

Roger, if you don't want to answer the above question then how about this one?

Why are you targeting the EC for elimination and not the Senate? Two Senators for each state is, after all, far less democratic than the EC. I don't understand the outcry on one but silence on the other. Is there some other factor involved, other than how undemocratic it is?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous wphamilton said...
Roger, if you don't want to answer the above question then how about this one?___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

wp, dealing with him on this issue is a giant waste of time for one very simple reason -

if the roles were reversed and clinton had won the EC but trump had won the pop vote we wouldn't even be having this conversation. he'd be strutting around telling us how devastated we are.

when all dealings with roger begin from the standpoint that he's an intellectually dishonest partisan hack on stilts, you can often save yourself a lot of time when trying to understand his position on every issue.

Anonymous said...

Is there some other factor involved, other than how undemocratic it is?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

the factor is that he like those rioters in the streets are sore losers suffering from an enormous butt hurt.

Commonsense said...

Roger sure didn't complain about the EC when Obama won two-terms under the same rules Trump won by.

It's all sour grapes from sore losers.

KD said...

Madam Yellen Told Trump not to touch "Dodd-Franks"...

Madam Yellen you work for Trump, you are part of the "swamp".

"You're Fired"

HB is a child, wears diaper pins and does nothing but cry .

KD said...

Anonymous Indy Voter said...
Your math sucks. A 1.3 million vote difference is only about 1% of the total votes."

Indy, let him bathe in his delusion, he is after all a Diaper Pin Wearing Liberal in grieving.


Anyone seen Jane, Silver was his rant non-stop until the very end.

KD said...

What does a TRUMP Win look like:

In part it looks like this:

"

tShare on Twitter


h



lShare on LinkedIn

dShare on Reddit

gShare on Google+

mE-mail


President-elect Donald Trump said Ford Motor Co. will be keeping a Lincoln plant in the U.S. instead of moving it to Mexico.

“Just got a call from my friend Bill Ford, Chairman of Ford, who advised me that he will be keeping the Lincoln plant in Kentucky -- no Mexico,” Trump wrote in posting on Twitter."


Ford keeps jobs here.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Just woke up to this.

Anonymous wphamilton said...
Roger, if you don't want to answer the above question then how about this one?

Why are you targeting the EC for elimination and not the Senate? Two Senators for each state is, after all, far less democratic than the EC. I don't understand the outcry on one but silence on the other. Is there some other factor involved, other than how undemocratic it is?

wp, I see the position of the President is a nationwide office. The Senate gives each state far more power, in the legislative process,than it would in a democracy. I think that this is sufficient to maintain this country as a Constitutional republic.

The presidency as the executive branch, affects every single state and I acknowledge that, but, this is just my opinion, that the electoral college gives the states disproportionate power in the selection of the only nation wide office.

Anonymous said...

the electoral college gives the states disproportionate power in the selection of the only nation wide office.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

you're just pissed because you lost.

if you were honest you would have held this position for years, not days.