Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr., the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, added the following day that transgender service members already serving will be treated with dignity and respect as the Pentagon sorts out its new policy, but that it would carry out Trump’s directive once it received guidance on how to do so.
Mattis left the door open to some transgender service members continuing to serve during an exchange with reporters at the Pentagon this month. The defense secretary, asked Aug. 14 if current service members would be ousted, pointed to Dunford’s directive.
“The chairman immediately went out and said immediately, ‘Everyone stand fast until we get the direction,’ ” Mattis said. “I understand that this is probably more about your suspicion about what could be coming, but the fact is we have received no direction that would indicate any harm to anybody right now.”
The Obama administration repealed its ban on transgender service member serving in July 2016. A Rand Corp. study commissioned by the Pentagon found that there were between 2,500 and 7,000 transgender people among the 1.3 million on active duty, but Mattis has questioned whether the study is accurate.
Got Viagra? It's Not Unusual at your age! Big smile yes I'm laughing at you. But you don't have a sense of humor anymore it it's buried under trumpism.
Mattis left the door open to some transgender service members continuing to serve during an exchange with reporters at the Pentagon this month. The defense secretary, asked Aug. 14 if current service members would be ousted, pointed to Dunford’s directive.
“The chairman immediately went out and said immediately, ‘Everyone stand fast until we get the direction,’ ” Mattis said. “I understand that this is probably more about your suspicion about what could be coming, but the fact is we have received no direction that would indicate any harm to anybody right now.”
The Obama administration repealed its ban on transgender service member serving in July 2016. A Rand Corp. study commissioned by the Pentagon found that there were between 2,500 and 7,000 transgender people among the 1.3 million on active duty, but Mattis has questioned whether the study is accurate.
“I’m not willing to sign up for the [Rand Corp.] numbers you just used, and I’m not willing to sign up for the concern any of [the transgender service members] have, considering what the chairman said,” Mattis said earlier this month. “And I’m not willing to prejudge what the study will now bring out.”
This is a classic case of the dishonest media being the dishonest media. If you read the headlines, the stories certainly imply (if not outright state) that Mattis is defying his boss and refusing to comply with what Trump has ordered...
But if you actually look into it, it turns out that Trump ordered the study (not Mattis) and that Mattis is simply in charge of conducting the study... which for all practical purposes is designed to figure out how to best follow through on the reinstatement of the ban. And to some degree, it appears to be push back in regards to how many transgender service people "really" joined the service since Obama lifted the ban in 2016 (the claims seem statistically high (or possibly just someone's guess).
Mattis clearly states that all of this, but the reporters simply reported what they wanted to report... along with their implications that this was something it wasn't (Mattis bucking the President).
Didn't the Joint Chiefs declare that there would be NO CHANGE in the policy until the Administration provided guidance on how it was to be implemented?
So therefore "Trump ordered the study ...to figure out how to best follow through on the reinstatement of the ban". It reminds me more than anything of the kid in the back of the class getting his assignment back and told, do it over and do it right. I've got a feeling that Trump was always that guy.
I think you are confusing the original "tweet" with the actual order. In response to the "tweet" - pretty much everyone said (logically) that nothing would be changed until they received specific order from the President.
Last time "I" checked... a "tweet" is not an official executive order that anyone is obligated to follow? Or do you disagree?
The actual Trump order specifically stated that there would be no change in the policy until Feb of 2018. The order leaves the door open for Mattis to make recommendations to the President prior to that time (when the study is expected to be completed)... both on the policy itself and the best way to implement the policy.
How it is written even leaves open possibility that Mattis could recommend to not put the ban back into place, and that Trump could still decide (if clear evidence is presented that it would be better for military readiness, etc... to include transgenders) to change his mind.
Mattis was doing nothing other than reporting on what Trump's order was asking him to do. The reports suggested something entirely different.
CH, I'm talking about the Pentagon response to the executive order. I've got no idea what you're going on about regarding tweets - I don't pay attention to those any more.
Sec. 2. Directives. The Secretary of Defense, and the Secretary of Homeland Security with respect to the U.S. Coast Guard, shall:
(a) maintain the currently effective policy regarding accession of transgender individuals into military service beyond January 1, 2018, until such time as the Secretary of Defense, after consulting with the Secretary of Homeland Security, provides a recommendation to the contrary that I find convincing; and
By February 21, 2018, the Secretary of Defense, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall submit to me a plan for implementing both the general policy set forth in section 1(b) of this memorandum and the specific directives set forth in section 2 of this memorandum. The implementation plan shall adhere to the determinations of the Secretary of Defense, made in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, as to what steps are appropriate and consistent with military effectiveness and lethality, budgetary constraints, and applicable law. As part of the implementation plan, the Secretary of Defense, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall determine how to address transgender individuals currently serving in the United States military. Until the Secretary has made that determination, no action may be taken against such individuals under the policy set forth in section 1(b) of this memorandum.
In other words, the President's order leaves in place the current policy for the time being. There was no immediate request to simply start removing transgender.
- The suggestion that it was Mattis (or anyone in the Pentagon) that came up with this concept independently is nonsense.
And the President asks Mattis and the Secretary of DHS to work together to come up with the plan to implement his order (or not depending on what they find).
- The suggestion that such an appeal to experts to study the issue is working against what the President wants is equally nonsense. He is asking them to take the time to look into things and determine what works best in terms of our military effectiveness.
______
I think (again) you were taken in by deceptive reporting, that is giving the impression that it's the Pentagon or Mattis or someone else that made the decisions to take time and study the issue "before" implementing it.
Defense Secretary Jim Mattis kicked President Trump’s proposed ban on transgender people serving in the military down the road, announcing that transgender service members will continue to be allowed to serve pending the results of a study.
In a statement on Tuesday evening, Mr. Mattis said that he was establishing a panel of experts, serving within the Pentagon and the Homeland Security Department, whose task will be to “provide advice and recommendations on the implementation of the president’s direction.”
Certainly sounds (based on this report) like Mattis is "bucking" the President on this one. But the reality is that Mattis is technically just following orders - pretty much to a "T".
With or without the Executive Order, the Pentagon's position was made clear: they would implement no changes until the Administration provided a plan of exactly how it should be achieved and they would not disrespect service members in the meantime.
Not mis-reporting, and not ordinary business. The Generals told the dumb guy in the back of the class to get his work in, and not just a couple of lines scribbled on a notepad.
Trump has made clear what he thinks of studies. If you were going to commission a study on the impact of a policy, you'd do it before the policy is announced. Before the policy is implemented by executive order. It's just another example of a disorganized bumbling administration.
is that when Obama put in his executive order lifting the ban on transgenders (with little if any military consultation) - he gave the military one month to get it done, with literally no general guidance.
After the month had gone by, there was still no directive. They had no rules on any of it. Nothing on how it would effect assignment, medical issues, how it would be handled with new recruits. Nothing.
I guess if Trump asking for a study and giving the military six months to make recommendations makes him the dummy in the back of the class, how dumb must Obama be to have thought it could get done in 30 days without any time to study or any time to make recommendations.
n his executive order lifting the ban on transgenders
Not an equivalent example...Obama created an open non-discrimation policy.....trump by his own opinion, practices bigotry, but you are too blind to see it....Oh well, keep defending trump, he won't last much longer....
they would implement no changes until the Administration provided a plan of exactly how it should be achieved and they would not disrespect service members in the meantime. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
wp,
the order specifically instructs the pentagon to come up with the plan.
Paul Manafort’s Overseas Political Work Had a Notable Patron: A Russian Oligarch- The Wall Street Journal. Paul Manafort’s Overseas Political Work Had a Notable Patron: A Russian Oligarch https://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-manaforts-overseas-political-work-had-a-notable-patron-a-russian-oligarch-1504131910
The real news is complex, but, his ties to Putin go back to 2000. And some of the connections between Manafort and Putin and the Russians need to be fully disclosed. When and where and why? And shit this is in response to another question.
As to this he told those people to stand by and you don't want to think that it's possible he was thinking that this is not right. There are a lot of people think it is not right most people in the upper echelons of the military don't like this at all.
The behavior - and the aims - of those black-clad thugs is despicable.
These are exactly the type of people that the Democrats must ensure are NOT seen as representative, and I think that the party has been distancing itself. I understand that you'd like to portray them as "Democrats" and "Liberals", as a payback for associating the alt-right as Republicans, but the difference is that Trump IS associated with that crowd so you kind of have to own it.
"the order specifically instructs the pentagon to come up with the plan."
Trump's order you mean. Yep, kicking the can down the road because he couldn't get it right from the start. What has Trump achieved with this order, objectively? An examination of a policy directive that will never be implemented, only implemented to the extent that the Pentagon decides is appropriate? ie, a piece of paper to brag about. Not even as effective as the travel ban fiasco.
The "order" is no "previous attempt", nor "current attempt" nor "future attempt". It's a piece of paper that you can brag about, which will never implement the policy that Trump announced. In other words, another Trump failure following on the heels of his failed policy pronouncement.
But to Trump, and to you I guess, it makes sense to proudly announce your bold policy, with no ifs ands or buts, THEN get told publicly that it won't work, THEN sign an order implementing ... something ... and THEN order up a study on how it will affect things. To me, that's just another example of the self-deluded incompetence of Trump and his staff, and the only surprising thing about it is the willingness of his hapless followers to make up excuses for it.
I am not making an argument as to whether the policy is good or bad, or whether the order will be successful or not successful. That is not my issue.
The only thing I am saying... is that the media is basically 100% wrong about how this is playing out. Some of it is so ridiculously silly that it's hard to understand how it can be taken seriously.
Again, there is a headline today on ABC that states Trump and Mattis are "at odds" over the transgender ban because Mattis is "Freezing" the ban until Feb so he can conduct a study?
WP... you are smart enough to understand my point that this is a total pile of B.S. Mattis is following 100% of what Trump's executive order states. There is no disagreement. There is no "at odds". Mattis is doing exactly what the President is asking him to do. It's even what Mattis said he was doing.
Yet the media either doesn't get it... or is purposely lying.
It's not going to be implemented till next Feb. I trust that the Secretary of Defense and director of Homeland security will put together a plan to implement that will be miles ahead of the actual implementation of the previous ban "lift".
The only thing inept at this point... is the media coverage of the situation. They have gotten close to "nothing" correct so far.
It won't be implemented in February, you know that CH. We can write the mostly likely version right now: no new recruits having gender dysphoria, no new medical procedures including drugs and hormones, and medical decisions for "transformations" in progress will be made on a case by case basis.
The only real question I see for it is this: will the military provide psychological treatment for gender dysphoria and/or just wash them out?
32 comments:
The new face of the Trump cabinet.
Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr., the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, added the following day that transgender service members already serving will be treated with dignity and respect as the Pentagon sorts out its new policy, but that it would carry out Trump’s directive once it received guidance on how to do so.
Mattis left the door open to some transgender service members continuing to serve during an exchange with reporters at the Pentagon this month. The defense secretary, asked Aug. 14 if current service members would be ousted, pointed to Dunford’s directive.
“The chairman immediately went out and said immediately, ‘Everyone stand fast until we get the direction,’ ” Mattis said. “I understand that this is probably more about your suspicion about what could be coming, but the fact is we have received no direction that would indicate any harm to anybody right now.”
The Obama administration repealed its ban on transgender service member serving in July 2016. A Rand Corp. study commissioned by the Pentagon found that there were between 2,500 and 7,000 transgender people among the 1.3 million on active duty, but Mattis has questioned whether the study is accurate.
Got Viagra? It's Not Unusual at your age! Big smile yes I'm laughing at you. But you don't have a sense of humor anymore it it's buried under trumpism.
The new face of the Republican Party.
https://youtu.be/mS9jkZysHAI
Mattis left the door open to some transgender service members continuing to serve during an exchange with reporters at the Pentagon this month. The defense secretary, asked Aug. 14 if current service members would be ousted, pointed to Dunford’s directive.
“The chairman immediately went out and said immediately, ‘Everyone stand fast until we get the direction,’ ” Mattis said. “I understand that this is probably more about your suspicion about what could be coming, but the fact is we have received no direction that would indicate any harm to anybody right now.”
The Obama administration repealed its ban on transgender service member serving in July 2016. A Rand Corp. study commissioned by the Pentagon found that there were between 2,500 and 7,000 transgender people among the 1.3 million on active duty, but Mattis has questioned whether the study is accurate.
“I’m not willing to sign up for the [Rand Corp.] numbers you just used, and I’m not willing to sign up for the concern any of [the transgender service members] have, considering what the chairman said,” Mattis said earlier this month. “And I’m not willing to prejudge what the study will now bring out.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/08/29/pentagon-chief-mattis-freezes-trumps-ban-on-transgender-troops-calls-for-more-study/?utm_term=.c6f930dfa8ef
"Mattis left the door open to some transgender service members continuing to serve during an exchange with reporters at the Pentagon this month."
a lie. mattis left no door open. mattis, whose primary concern is battle readiness and effectiveness is waiting for direction. period.
more fake news from wapo scumbags who just can't help themselves.
Roger -
This is a classic case of the dishonest media being the dishonest media. If you read the headlines, the stories certainly imply (if not outright state) that Mattis is defying his boss and refusing to comply with what Trump has ordered...
But if you actually look into it, it turns out that Trump ordered the study (not Mattis) and that Mattis is simply in charge of conducting the study... which for all practical purposes is designed to figure out how to best follow through on the reinstatement of the ban. And to some degree, it appears to be push back in regards to how many transgender service people "really" joined the service since Obama lifted the ban in 2016 (the claims seem statistically high (or possibly just someone's guess).
Mattis clearly states that all of this, but the reporters simply reported what they wanted to report... along with their implications that this was something it wasn't (Mattis bucking the President).
Mattis Will Begin Review of Transgender Military Policies
No, this is NOT a Mattis vs. Trump thing….
http://legalinsurrection.com/2017/08/mattis-will-begin-review-of-transgender-military-policies/
i wonder what it is about alcoholics and their pathological lying?
Didn't the Joint Chiefs declare that there would be NO CHANGE in the policy until the Administration provided guidance on how it was to be implemented?
So therefore "Trump ordered the study ...to figure out how to best follow through on the reinstatement of the ban". It reminds me more than anything of the kid in the back of the class getting his assignment back and told, do it over and do it right. I've got a feeling that Trump was always that guy.
WP...
I think you are confusing the original "tweet" with the actual order. In response to the "tweet" - pretty much everyone said (logically) that nothing would be changed until they received specific order from the President.
Last time "I" checked... a "tweet" is not an official executive order that anyone is obligated to follow? Or do you disagree?
The actual Trump order specifically stated that there would be no change in the policy until Feb of 2018. The order leaves the door open for Mattis to make recommendations to the President prior to that time (when the study is expected to be completed)... both on the policy itself and the best way to implement the policy.
How it is written even leaves open possibility that Mattis could recommend to not put the ban back into place, and that Trump could still decide (if clear evidence is presented that it would be better for military readiness, etc... to include transgenders) to change his mind.
Mattis was doing nothing other than reporting on what Trump's order was asking him to do. The reports suggested something entirely different.
CH, I'm talking about the Pentagon response to the executive order. I've got no idea what you're going on about regarding tweets - I don't pay attention to those any more.
WP - his executive order was just issued.
Sec. 2. Directives. The Secretary of Defense, and the Secretary of Homeland Security with respect to the U.S. Coast Guard, shall:
(a) maintain the currently effective policy regarding accession of transgender individuals into military service beyond January 1, 2018, until such time as the Secretary of Defense, after consulting with the Secretary of Homeland Security, provides a recommendation to the contrary that I find convincing; and
By February 21, 2018, the Secretary of Defense, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall submit to me a plan for implementing both the general policy set forth in section 1(b) of this memorandum and the specific directives set forth in section 2 of this memorandum. The implementation plan shall adhere to the determinations of the Secretary of Defense, made in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, as to what steps are appropriate and consistent with military effectiveness and lethality, budgetary constraints, and applicable law. As part of the implementation plan, the Secretary of Defense, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, shall determine how to address transgender individuals currently serving in the United States military. Until the Secretary has made that determination, no action may be taken against such individuals under the policy set forth in section 1(b) of this memorandum.
In other words, the President's order leaves in place the current policy for the time being. There was no immediate request to simply start removing transgender.
- The suggestion that it was Mattis (or anyone in the Pentagon) that came up with this concept independently is nonsense.
And the President asks Mattis and the Secretary of DHS to work together to come up with the plan to implement his order (or not depending on what they find).
- The suggestion that such an appeal to experts to study the issue is working against what the President wants is equally nonsense. He is asking them to take the time to look into things and determine what works best in terms of our military effectiveness.
______
I think (again) you were taken in by deceptive reporting, that is giving the impression that it's the Pentagon or Mattis or someone else that made the decisions to take time and study the issue "before" implementing it.
They are simply following orders.
As they are required to.
Here is what the NYT stated:
Defense Secretary Jim Mattis kicked President Trump’s proposed ban on transgender people serving in the military down the road, announcing that transgender service members will continue to be allowed to serve pending the results of a study.
In a statement on Tuesday evening, Mr. Mattis said that he was establishing a panel of experts, serving within the Pentagon and the Homeland Security Department, whose task will be to “provide advice and recommendations on the implementation of the president’s direction.”
Certainly sounds (based on this report) like Mattis is "bucking" the President on this one. But the reality is that Mattis is technically just following orders - pretty much to a "T".
Dishonest reporting?
With or without the Executive Order, the Pentagon's position was made clear: they would implement no changes until the Administration provided a plan of exactly how it should be achieved and they would not disrespect service members in the meantime.
Not mis-reporting, and not ordinary business. The Generals told the dumb guy in the back of the class to get his work in, and not just a couple of lines scribbled on a notepad.
Trump has made clear what he thinks of studies. If you were going to commission a study on the impact of a policy, you'd do it before the policy is announced. Before the policy is implemented by executive order. It's just another example of a disorganized bumbling administration.
Op-Ed
The ACLU's free speech stance should be about social justice, not 'timeless' principles
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-weinrib-aclu-speech-history-20170830-story.html?utm_content=buffer1b5ae&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
the most chilling thing about this article is that the author is a professor of law at the U of Chicago law school.
Not mis-reporting, and not ordinary business.
I guess if that's what the media tells you... then it must be true.
What's interesting, WP....
is that when Obama put in his executive order lifting the ban on transgenders (with little if any military consultation) - he gave the military one month to get it done, with literally no general guidance.
After the month had gone by, there was still no directive. They had no rules on any of it. Nothing on how it would effect assignment, medical issues, how it would be handled with new recruits. Nothing.
I guess if Trump asking for a study and giving the military six months to make recommendations makes him the dummy in the back of the class, how dumb must Obama be to have thought it could get done in 30 days without any time to study or any time to make recommendations.
WP
Trump has made clear what he thinks of studies.
And science or anything that he does not understand which is limitless.....Kinda like how CH handles things, on an emotional level without logic....
n his executive order lifting the ban on transgenders
Not an equivalent example...Obama created an open non-discrimation policy.....trump by his own opinion, practices bigotry, but you are too blind to see it....Oh well, keep defending trump, he won't last much longer....
they would implement no changes until the Administration provided a plan of exactly how it should be achieved and they would not disrespect service members in the meantime.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
wp,
the order specifically instructs the pentagon to come up with the plan.
not the white house.
Paul Manafort’s Overseas Political Work Had a Notable Patron: A Russian Oligarch- The Wall Street Journal.
Paul Manafort’s Overseas Political Work Had a Notable Patron: A Russian Oligarch https://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-manaforts-overseas-political-work-had-a-notable-patron-a-russian-oligarch-1504131910
The real news is complex, but, his ties to Putin go back to 2000. And some of the connections between Manafort and Putin and the Russians need to be fully disclosed. When and where and why? And shit this is in response to another question.
As to this he told those people to stand by and you don't want to think that it's possible he was thinking that this is not right. There are a lot of people think it is not right most people in the upper echelons of the military don't like this at all.
The behavior - and the aims - of those black-clad thugs is despicable.
These are exactly the type of people that the Democrats must ensure are NOT seen as representative, and I think that the party has been distancing itself. I understand that you'd like to portray them as "Democrats" and "Liberals", as a payback for associating the alt-right as Republicans, but the difference is that Trump IS associated with that crowd so you kind of have to own it.
"the order specifically instructs the pentagon to come up with the plan."
Trump's order you mean. Yep, kicking the can down the road because he couldn't get it right from the start. What has Trump achieved with this order, objectively? An examination of a policy directive that will never be implemented, only implemented to the extent that the Pentagon decides is appropriate? ie, a piece of paper to brag about. Not even as effective as the travel ban fiasco.
but the difference is that Trump IS associated with that crowd so you kind of have to own it.
So the media tells you...
Yep, kicking the can down the road because he couldn't get it right from the start.
This was the initial order. There was no "previous attempt" at anything.
The "order" is no "previous attempt", nor "current attempt" nor "future attempt". It's a piece of paper that you can brag about, which will never implement the policy that Trump announced. In other words, another Trump failure following on the heels of his failed policy pronouncement.
But to Trump, and to you I guess, it makes sense to proudly announce your bold policy, with no ifs ands or buts, THEN get told publicly that it won't work, THEN sign an order implementing ... something ... and THEN order up a study on how it will affect things. To me, that's just another example of the self-deluded incompetence of Trump and his staff, and the only surprising thing about it is the willingness of his hapless followers to make up excuses for it.
WP...
I am not making an argument as to whether the policy is good or bad, or whether the order will be successful or not successful. That is not my issue.
The only thing I am saying... is that the media is basically 100% wrong about how this is playing out. Some of it is so ridiculously silly that it's hard to understand how it can be taken seriously.
Again, there is a headline today on ABC that states Trump and Mattis are "at odds" over the transgender ban because Mattis is "Freezing" the ban until Feb so he can conduct a study?
WP... you are smart enough to understand my point that this is a total pile of B.S. Mattis is following 100% of what Trump's executive order states. There is no disagreement. There is no "at odds". Mattis is doing exactly what the President is asking him to do. It's even what Mattis said he was doing.
Yet the media either doesn't get it... or is purposely lying.
That's my only point, WP...
Sen Debbie Wasaman Schultz is a criminal.
Sen Robert MenenDez is currently on Trial.
Sen Bernie Sanders is under FBI investigTion.
I don't think that his objective is necessarily wrong, but everything about the implementation has been inept.
WP
It's not going to be implemented till next Feb. I trust that the Secretary of Defense and director of Homeland security will put together a plan to implement that will be miles ahead of the actual implementation of the previous ban "lift".
The only thing inept at this point... is the media coverage of the situation. They have gotten close to "nothing" correct so far.
It won't be implemented in February, you know that CH. We can write the mostly likely version right now: no new recruits having gender dysphoria, no new medical procedures including drugs and hormones, and medical decisions for "transformations" in progress will be made on a case by case basis.
The only real question I see for it is this: will the military provide psychological treatment for gender dysphoria and/or just wash them out?
gender dysphoria is a four letter word.
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