Wednesday, April 11, 2018

Riddle me this?

So the theory here is that a $130K payment to Stormy Daniels as part of a non-disclosure agreement was in fact a "campaign contribution" and therefor illegal (as it would be in excess of what the individual in question could conceivably give to a campaign).

Keeping in mind that the main reason why the FBI is going about this as a matter regarding campaign finance and banking fraud... is because the sort of non-disclosure agreement made with Stormy Daniels is not (in and of itself) illegal. Otherwise Cohen would simply be charged with the illegal action of paying someone off for their silence. But of course, there is no such statute banning it.

So it would logically follow that rather than have Michael Cohen pay for the non-disclosure agreement (because it is being viewed as some sort of campaign expense), then the legal thing to do would have been to have the campaign itself make the payment to Stormy Daniels?

Really?

However, the FEC specifically bans the use of campaign funds that would otherwise exist irrespective to the campaign. Only expenses that exist because of the campaign can be (and must be) paid from campaign funds. The language of the law states very clearly that a campaign cannot pay for an expense otherwise just related to a candidate or candidacy. This avoids any chance that a candidate would use campaign funds to take care of personal business.

So the idea that the Cohen payment to Stormy Daniels is a campaign contribution, would suggest that the FBI considers the use of a non-disclosure contract to buy silence ("hush money") to be a legitimate type of campaign expense. Because if it is not a legitimate type of campaign expense, then you cannot charge someone with a violation of campaign contribution limits.

However, the use of "hush money" has never been considered a legitimate use of campaign funds. In fact, the use of campaign funds to buy silence was one of the articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon.

Seems like a strange argument to make, doesn't it? It would appear that this otherwise perfectly legal non-disclosure contract is actually being argued to have been illegal regardless of how it is paid for? Sort of a typical use of legal gymnastics that has been routinely applied to Trump and anyone associated with him.

126 comments:

The insanity of this President Trumps all else, Ch"truth" should have said...

TRUMP TWEET THIS MORNING
Russia vows to shoot down any and all missiles fired at Syria. Get ready Russia, because they will be coming, nice and new and “smart!” You shouldn’t be partners with a Gas Killing Animal who kills his people and enjoys it!

TRUMP TWEET LATER TODAY
Our relationship with Russia is worse now than it has ever been, and that includes the Cold War. There is no reason for this. Russia needs us to help with their economy, something that would be very easy to do, and we need all nations to work together. Stop the arms race?


TRUMP TWEET STILL LATER TODAY
Much of the bad blood with Russia is caused by the Fake & Corrupt Russia Investigation, headed up by the all Democrat loyalists, or people that worked for Obama. Mueller is most conflicted of all (except Rosenstein who signed FISA & Comey letter). No Collusion, so they go crazy!

C.H. Truth said...

Example - A brother in law of mine ran for local office. The campaign contribution limit was limited to a few hundred dollars. His parents donated the legal limit to the campaign.

Would his parents buying him a new suit during the campaign be considered a violation of campaign contributions, because the suit was worn during his public debates and made him look professional?

Could he purchase it himself after donating the maximum to his campaign? Could his wife purchase him a new tie to wear to the debate if she already gave the legal limit? How about a pair of new shoes because he spent a bunch of time walking?

Obviously the "anything of value" argument doesn't really work. It would have to be both something of value and something that the campaign otherwise would be allowed to (or obligated to) pay for.


Teresa Dulyea-Parker said...

James Boswell of Normal, Illinois is a pedophile and admits it.

Denny said...


Example - A brother in law of mine ran for local office.

1) so what

2) If he can't afford his own suits, he shouldn't be running..

3) Another worthless hypothetical

4) Let the investigation and indictments roll!!!!!

wphamilton said...

His parents, no problem buying him a suit. It's something they might plausibly do anyway.

Change that to a local lobbyist who donated the maximum and then gave him a suit, yeah that could be a problem and he could in theory be investigated and prosecuted.

Anonymous said...

"different legal standards"
WP

C.H. Truth said...

His parents, no problem buying him a suit. It's something they might plausibly do anyway.

A personal attorney might also plausibly enter into an non-disclosure agreement for someone who is otherwise a celebrity or someone who had a reputation to protect. Which is sort of my point.


A lobbyist is not allowed to give (nor is a politician allowed to accept) a gift, because a lobbyist could be seen as buying a vote (or potential vote). I know in some states, this applies to candidates (as well as those already in office). Not sure how the Federal laws are regarding this (candidate or just office holder).

You cannot suggest that a personal lawyer is attempting to buy their vote, any more than you can suggest that someone's wife if attempting to buy a vote.

That is why they are attempting to claim that it is a campaign contribution, rather than a campaign gift. Or at least that is what it being claimed by sources.

Anonymous said...

Donald Trump's Presidential oath was administered by Chief Justice John Roberts on January 20, 2017 at 11:47 ET.
He has been president for:

1 year, 81 days"

commie said...

He has been president for. 1 year, 81 days" way too long!!!!! LOLOL

KD understands calendars,,,,, WOW!

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

It seems like a strange argument that if campaign funds were used to alter the outcome of the election, by using campaign funds to pay for the silence of the porn star who had a sexual relationship with Mr Trump are not hush funds that are not illegal use of Presidential campaign funds?

Because in the opinion of the host as he stated that they are politically motivated as he stated Sort of a typical use of legal gymnastics that has been routinely applied to Trump and anyone associated with him.

The firm belief that the FBI/DOJ practice partisan investigations is his statement means that the violation campaign law should not be applied in any case against the President.

wphamilton said...

Is it really plausible for an attorney to do that? My understanding is that it's a serious violation, so I have a hard time with "plausible".

People buy their kids gifts all the time. Lawyers giving gifts to clients ... fails the sniff test. Not an equivalency.

Commonsense said...

Is it really plausible for an attorney to do that?

Yes, do you really think this is the first time a lawyer for a rich and famous family has paid money for an NDA agreement to quite a scandal.

Do you really want to know how much lawyers for the Kennedy family paid to tamp down the many scandals surrounding the family name?

wphamilton said...

Do you know of any specific examples? Yes, why don't you tell me "how much lawyers for the Kennedy family paid"? I'm all ears.

Anonymous said...

Today the 4 liberal stooges agreed that the once private records of, Doctors,Mental Health Professionals, Clergy and Lawyers are no longer afford long legal standing of a protected class.

Commonsense said...

Do you know of any specific examples? Yes, why don't you tell me

WP you can spend a comfy evening reading about it yourself.

Chappaquiddick incident

Gee they even made a movie of this one.

Murder of Martha Moxley

William Kennedy Smith Rape Case

A Century of Scandal: The Kennedys

Enjoy!!

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...


JFK’s teen mistress addresses relationship in memoir
By Cynthia R. Fagen

February 5, 2012 | 5:00am
Helayne Seidman
She always called him “Mr. President” — not Jack. He refused to kiss her on the lips when they made love. But Mimi Alford, a White House intern from New Jersey, was smitten nonetheless.

She was in the midst of an 18-month affair with the most powerful man in the world, sharing not only John F. Kennedy’s bed but also some of his darkest and most intimate moments.

In her explosive new tell-all, “Once Upon a Secret: My Affair with President John F. Kennedy and Its Aftermath,” Alford, now a 69-year-old grandmother and retired New York City church administrator, sets the record straight in searingly candid detail. The book, out Wednesday was bought by The Post at a Manhattan bookstore

wphamilton said...

I know the Kennedy incidents obviously, but you said that his lawyers paid people off on them. You asked if I wanted to know how much the lawyers paid.

So, CS, WHICH lawyers paid, WHICH incidents, HOW MUCH?

I've never heard of a lawyer paying out his own pocket for a client, so good luck with that.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

In the past few days, since the subpoena on his personal lawyer Cohen. His tweets were a warning to the Russians that they were going to pay for the gas weapons murder of civilians. He ran one claim that Obama had telegraphed his intentions. He was never going tell the enemy that he would warn in advance. His chief of staff was "appalled" by his outburst at the Cohen raid during a meeting with the Chiefs of commanders on Syria. The fake News has been reporting that the staff is appalled by this behavior.

Anonymous said...

And?

C.H. Truth said...

My understanding is that it's a serious violation

How so? Because they raided his various properties... so it must be a serious violation? Seems like you simply reject the idea that this was a little bit "over the top". Again, if Mueller and the FBI do something, then they must have good reason.

Sort of how all Christains know there is a heaven, huh?

So far, all they are suggesting is a campaign contribution violation or a bank fraud. Never heard of a campaign violation being a serious violation, nor would a $130,000 home equity loan be considered high stakes fraud.

Anonymous said...

Cash for Comey.
What a low life.

Anonymous said...

MOONBEAM.
will send Calf. National guard to border to, in his word "combat transnational crime".

Is everyone living in CA a brain dead asshole

Warning reader said...

Tempests buffeting White House now threaten to engulf Trump

Associated Press
By JONATHAN LEMIRE, CATHERINE LUCEY and ZEKE MILLER
4 hrs ago

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Cohen; "He's like a mob boss"

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

"I will never give the enemy a prior warning. Donald J. Trump.

As U.S. President Donald Trump and his allies ramped up threats of military action against Syria this week, Syria’s military has repositioned some air assets to avoid fallout from possible missile strikes, U.S. officials told Reuters. https://reut.rs/2EFg3eM

Loretta said...

"So far, all they are suggesting is a campaign contribution violation or a bank fraud."

I think we can ALL just stop the pretense that this about collusion.

Loretta said...

Oh lookie, censorship doesn't exist on CHT.

Roger and the pedo can still spam with impunity.

wphamilton said...

How so? Because they raided his various properties... so it must be a serious violation

What gave you that idea? It's always been an ethics violation for lawyers to pay a client's fine, or debt or whatever.

Commonsense said...

The specious logic and reaching of the liberal members of the blog is not uncommon. They take their cues from the at large media meltdown.

The 2016 election broke some people in media

The U.S.’ top geopolitical threat is Russia. “Fake news” is a genuine problem. The Kremlin meddled in the 2016 election by spreading disinformation. All of this is true.

But these truths don’t make the groundless ravings of the same media personalities who scoffed in 2012 at warnings about Moscow any less ridiculous or pitiful. These truths don’t justify the equally pitiable fact that they've nothing to show for the hours, weeks and months they’ve dedicated to increasingly fantastic theories.

If you consider yourself a constitutional conservative or a libertarian, it’s hard not to be amused by this ongoing post-election meltdown. For both groups, politics and culture have one overwhelming flavor: disappointment. Yet most of them take defeat on the chin and move forward, looking to the next political contest.

Losing at the ballot box is a regular occurrence for them. Watching as preferred candidates are pushed to the side in favor of obviously inferior alternatives is what happens. The general erosion of civil liberties and federalism has been an unpleasant fact for decades. Then there’s the culture war, which has been little more than a steady stream of losses. Books, movies, songs, television shows, etc., have increasingly mirrored a certain worldview, and it’s not exactly conservative or libertarian (there are exceptions, of course).

The gung-ho progressive, on the other hand, has seen so many incremental gains in politics and the culture wars recently that I think he has forgotten what it’s like to lose. He has forgotten that half of the country doesn’t think like him, and that a significant number of voters oppose his worldview so much that they'd even vote for Trump.

And that's the unkindest cut of all.

Anonymous said...




can someone please connect the dots for me between the "access hollywood" tape and the russian collusion thingy?

i'm just not seeing it.

thanks.



Commonsense said...

It's always been an ethics violation for lawyers to pay a client's fine, or debt or whatever.

So the high bar needed to trample on attorney/client privilege was an ethics violation?

We are well on the road to fascism.

Anonymous said...




oh, and also -

help me understand the deference shown to cheryl mills vs. the treatment of cohen.

thanks again.

Myballs said...

Access Hollywood
Billy Bush
George w. Bush
President
Russia

:O)

Loretta said...

"can someone please connect the dots for me between the "access hollywood" tape and the russian collusion thingy?"

Oh! We've moved on from the Russian collusion thingy to supposed ethics violations...

...ethics violations which are probably non-existent.

Lawyers have trust accounts and pay for ALL sorts of things on behalf of their clients, which is probably what happened with Cohen and Trump.

Denny sweetie said...

Lawyers have trust accounts and pay for ALL sorts of things on behalf of their clients,

That's not what he did with trump....he took a personal equity loan and paid a hooker that donnie denies knowing anything about.....Yeah, all above board....BWAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

commie said...

deference shown to cheryl mills vs. the treatment of cohen.



She didn't take a 130k loan to pay off trumps whore to keep her mouth shut....

Loretta said...

"help me understand the deference shown to cheryl mills vs. the treatment of cohen."

One is a Democrat, no investigation, and the other is being used to take down a duly elected sitting President by any means necessary...

...preferably using a hearse.

Glad to clear that up!

Loretta said...

Next up?

Some poor ex-doorman received $30 grand from the National Enquirer.

His life will never be the same.

Denny sweetie said...

One is a Democrat

How quickly one of limited ability forgets the Trey and Nunes months and months of spending money, time and effort on investigations that yield less than shit.....I guess that had nothing to do with attacking a sitting president and his cabinet.....right lesbo????

Denny sweetie said...

His life will never be the same.

Probably a beaner who will waste the money on drugs and booze.....Funny how that will work out!!!

Loretta said...

Home equity loans aren't illegal, nor is it illegal to transfer those funds into a general account or a trust account.

Attorneys take out home equity loans, loan it to their law firms, all of the time.

Personal attorneys have more flexibility than corporate attorneys...I'm guessing the FBI knows this.

Loretta said...

You forgot LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL, Dennis.

Make me laugh, entertain me, or leave.

wphamilton said...

So the high bar needed to trample on attorney/client privilege was an ethics violation?

You've mixed up the conversion. It's why Cohen paying off Trump's mistress is not "something that a person would plausibly do anyway", like parents buying a suit for their son. Coldheart's analogy. He was trying to say it's a trivial thing, that happens all the time, so it shouldn't be construed as a campaign donation.

You were saying the same thing in fact, referring to all those examples from the Kennedies where lawyers were paying off women out of their own pocket. You were remarking about how dumb a person was, to not know that. But you were never able to present a single example (because they don't exist). What Cohen did, or claims to have done, is extremely unusual.

denny sweetie said...

Lesbo Loser Loretta posts another brilliant thought with....

You forgot LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL, Dennis.

Make me laugh, entertain me, or leave.

ESAD asshole.....again proving you are as worthless as trumps lawyer....

wphamilton said...

help me understand the deference shown to cheryl mills vs. the treatment of cohen.

RRB, it's because Mills isn't being investigated for bank fraud and campaign finance violations.

Denny sweetie said...

Attorneys take out home equity loans, loan it to their law firms, all of the time.

BULLSHIT!!!!! I'm sure you can prove that with a link, loser.....l

wphamilton said...

ABA Rule 1.8: Current Clients: Specific Rules

"(e) A lawyer shall not provide financial assistance to a client in connection with pending or contemplated litigation, except that:

(1) a lawyer may advance court costs and expenses of litigation, the repayment of which may be contingent on the outcome of the matter; and

(2) a lawyer representing an indigent client may pay court costs"

C.H. Truth said...

Just so that we are clear here, WP...

You are totally okay with the idea that a potential violation of the American Bar Association "rules of professional conduct"

is completely worthy of an all out FBI raid on several places of property?

And you are willing to argue this with a straight face?

Commonsense said...

You've mixed up the conversion. It's why Cohen paying off Trump's mistress is not "something that a person would plausibly do anyway", like parents buying a suit for their son.

I was quoting you and considering their "relationship" lasted all of 20 minutes I don't think mistress is the right word, at least in my understanding of the context.

And yes paying off a blackmailer is something a person plausibly do anyway.

Commonsense said...

Mills isn't being investigated for bank fraud and campaign finance violations.

Na, just conspiracy in violating the espionage act that's all.

In fact, there's more justification for the FBI to raid her office than Cohans.

Presidxent waffling twitters said...

https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201804121063474655-trump-syria-twitter-attack/

Russian diplomat says they don't engage in twitter diplomacy.
(The adult in the room.)

commie said...

I don't think mistress is the right word, at least in my understanding of the context.

All right, lets call her a hooker or whore !!! I'm sure evangelicals would like that term a lot more better...LOLOLO

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

What the fuck is the President saying?
There are few better examples of the terminal confusion gripping the Trump administration than the competing headlines published by The Post and the New York Times last Wednesday. The Post: “Trump instructs military to begin planning for withdrawal from Syria.” The Times: “Trump Drops Push for Immediate Withdrawal of Troops From Syria.”

Both headline writers were trying in good faith to decipher the undecipherable — the intentions of our mercurial president, which can change as rapidly as the weather in Rapid City, S.D . Syrian President Bashar al-Assad may have believed that President Trump was really pulling out and thus felt free to apparently use chemical weapons against the city of Douma this past Saturday. But after years spent criticizing President Barack Obama for sacrificing surprise in military strikes, Trump announced that U.S. missiles — “nice and new and ‘smart!’ ” — would soon be striking Syria.

If “Animal Assad,” as the president likes to call him, can’t figure out Trump, he is hardly alone. It is not just that Trump changes his mind often, although he does. It is also that when he speaks his mind, it is often impossible to figure out what he’s saying. Here is Trump speaking last week: “Nobody’s been tougher on Russia than I have. . . . And with that being said, I think I could have a very good relationship with President Putin. . . . Getting along with Russia is a good thing. . . . So I think I could have a very good relationship with Russia and with President Putin. And if I did, that would be a great thing. And there’s also a possibility that that won’t happen. Who knows? Okay?” Who knows, indeed.

Trump’s ramblings about Vladi­mir Putin were positively pellucid in their clarity compared with his March 29 comments on the U.S.-South Korea trade deal: “So we’ve redone it, and that’s going to level the playing field on steel and cars and trucks coming into this country. And I may hold it up till after a deal is made with North Korea. Does everybody understand that? You know why, right? You know why? Because it’s a very strong card.”


I have asked numerous Korea experts what this is supposed to mean, and no one has any idea. Why would Trump want to hold up a trade deal with South Korea to gain leverage over North Korea? Maybe he is planning to make such massive concessions to Kim Jong Un that he will need to bludgeon Seoul into acquiescing. Or maybe he was simply confusing North and South Korea — a mistake he has made before. Who can keep all those Koreas straight?




Anonymous said...

Is the USA and Russia in a shooting war and you leftist want so very badly?

wphamilton said...

I apologize, I was thinking of someone else RRB, other than Cheryl Mills. I don't know why she wasn't arrested and charged. Possibly because of corruption in the leadership of the DOJ.

Commonsense said...

ABA Rule 1.8: Current Clients: Specific Rules

The point being the FBI and even the DOJ is not in the business of enforcing the ABA ethics rules.

And certainly it's not in the preview of the special counsel.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Most presidents enter office knowing relatively little about foreign policy and learn a lot on the job. Trump knew less than any of his predecessors and has learned less than any of them. The perpetual fog that clouds his thinking has not lifted an inch; if anything, it is becoming ever more impenetrable.

This is what happens when you are functionally illiterate: Trump can read in theory but chooses not to, and therefore he is incapable of sustained learning. As The Post reported, “He rarely if ever reads the President’s Daily Brief, a document that lays out the most pressing information collected by U.S. intelligence agencies from hot spots around the world.”

Instead of relying on the written word, Trump relies on the nitwits who opine on the Fox News channel. I’ve previously suggested that Fox News is Trump’s RT, but that’s not quite right: Putin is too smart to believe what his own propagandists say. Not Trump: If “Fox & Friends” tells him that a “caravan” of Central American refugees is about to invade the United States, Trump will faithfully echo their hysteria. He even seeks out Sean Hannity and Lou Dobbs off air for their fortune-cookie insights.

Trump is proud of his lack of “book learnin’. ” During the 2016 campaign, he bragged, as The Post noted, “that he does not need to read extensively because he reaches the right decisions ‘with very little knowledge other than the knowledge I [already] had, plus the words “common sense.” ’ ” In practice, Trump’s policies defy any kind of sense, common or otherwise.

He is trying to negotiate a nuclear deal with North Korea — but at the same time he is threatening to tear up the one with Iran. He has threatened a trade war against China — but at the same time he needs China’s help to coerce North Korea into making a deal. He is intent on withdrawing from the Iran nuclear accord because he is so worried about Iran — but at the same time he is handing Syria over to Iran on a silver platter. Or at least he was before the latest apparent chemical attack. Now he’s preparing to bomb Syria as a prelude to either greater engagement or disengagement. With the “very stable genius” in charge, who knows what’s going to happen next?

Trump prides himself on unpredictability, but, as the attack in Syria showed, there is a price to be paid for leaving allies and enemies alike guessing about your intentions.


Max Boot.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/opinions/trump-is-making-less-sense-than-ever/2018/04/11/a95a4b20-3db4-11e8-8d53-eba0ed2371cc_story.html

Loretta said...

"And you are willing to argue this with a straight face?"

Yes.

Commonsense said...

All right, lets call her a hooker or whore !!!

That would be closer but I don't think money exchanged hands at that point.

In modern terms it is described as a "hook up". But there is really no term for the woman or the man in that situation.

Loretta said...

"there is a price to be paid for leaving allies and enemies alike guessing about your intentions."

They aren't guessing.

Max Boot, lol.

Commonsense said...

I was thinking of someone else RRB, other than Cheryl Mills. I don't know why she wasn't arrested and charged. Possibly because of corruption in the leadership of the DOJ.

The leadership you now trust unquestionably when it comes to Trump.

wphamilton said...

Blogger C.H. Truth said...
Just so that we are clear here, WP...

You are totally okay with the idea that a potential violation of the American Bar Association "rules of professional conduct"

is completely worthy of an all out FBI raid on several places of property?


Of course not. Remember, this is all from your analogy Coldheart.

It does present as his motive to commit bank fraud however. He likely had other motive as well, but a prominent lawyer hiding Bar Association violations is a pretty good motive. It also knocks down your attempted defense of the campaign finance violation.

To be clear, there is almost no chance of disbarment for that kind of offense. It's generally just a note and a censure unless the lawyer does something criminal, billing fraud or something like that. But it does damage the lawyer's reputation and they do take it seriously.

wphamilton said...

The leadership you now trust unquestionably when it comes to Trump.

Which of the DOJ staff are you talking about, that's the same?

Here, check this chart https://www.justice.gov/agencies/chart and just tell me the position that you're thinking about, if you don't want to spend time googling.

wphamilton said...

The point being the FBI and even the DOJ is not in the business of enforcing the ABA ethics rules.

That's a meaningless point, because no one has suggested that they were.

Commonsense said...

That's a meaningless point, because no one has suggested that they were

You did when you said it was an ethics violation.

So in summary.

1. There's a possible ethics violation.

2. The bank in question did not file a criminal complaint for bank fraud.

3. The campaign donation theory is specious at best.

And for this attorney/client privilege was violated.

Commonsense said...

Which of the DOJ staff are you talking about, that's the same?

It not on your chart now but Mueller was head of the FBI and he's friends with James Comey so he's now part of the same corrupt leadership you trust.

wphamilton said...

Not being on the DOJ org chart, but Mueller is part of the top DOJ leadership that "I trust" according to you? Interesting.

I'll just add it to the list of things commonsense is obnoxious about, but doesn't know what he's talking about.

wphamilton said...

You did when you said it was an ethics violation.

Ah, so my merely mentioning the ethics violation is, according to you, tantamount to declaring that " the FBI and even the DOJ is in the business of enforcing".

I'll add that to your list as well.

C.H. Truth said...

It also knocks down your attempted defense of the campaign finance violation.

How so?

Reread the post, and explain to me how your argument "knocks down" the crux of my argument...

Which is, of course, that "hush money" is not a legitimate use of campaign funds, and therefor cannot be considered an actual campaign contribution.


I understand that the argument that a potential violation to the rules of professional conduct could provide incentive to hide the payment from plain sight... but unless there is some real agreement with the bank to make them aware of what the money is being spent on, then he is under no obligation to simply disclose his payment to anyone.

I literally just opened a small Home equity line of credit which I had no specific use for (other than some consolidation). The bank did not ask for specifics, did not require anything from me, and I am not required to make any notifications to them for when or how I use the funds moving forward. As long as I have the equity (thus collateral) and am paying them back, they couldn't care less what I might potentially use that money for.

It sort of sounds like we now believe that every time someone uses money for any reason that someone might find nefarious... that it's bank fraud?

Commonsense said...

I literally just opened a small Home equity line of credit which I had no specific use for (other than some consolidation). The bank did not ask for specifics, did not require anything from me, and I am not required to make any notifications to them for when or how I use the funds moving forward.

It's the same point I've been making all along. There's no bank fraud here.

Rosenstein has a lot to answer for.

Commie said...

that it's bank fraud?

Since you and menstral cramp have provided nothing but YOUR hypothetical of a loan without direct knowledge of what the government's case is....I call another big BULLSHIT on both of you.. I couldn't care less if you are on your last dime...Cohen paid a hooker for trump and that is the only fact you have....LOL

Anonymous said...

It's always been an ethics violation for lawyers to pay a client's fine, or debt or whatever."

What bs.

Commonsense said...

I think you can safely assume Cohen's equity line loan was typical for that type.

And as such there was no restriction on how the money was used now did they ever bother the ask the question.

If the theory of bank fraud was that Cohen lied about how the money was going to be used then I don't see it since he didn't even have to lie at all.

So unless you can bring up a contra example I call bullshit on your bullshit.

Anonymous said...

Where are the liberal Females defending Diamond & Silk?

Anonymous said...

Bank Fraud Outrage, lol, naw.
The 4 liberal stooges of CHT are not outraged about Aunt and uncle Bernie Sanders bank fraud.

Anonymous said...

Bank Fraud Outrage, lol, naw.
The 4 liberal stooges of CHT are not outraged about Aunt and uncle Bernie Sanders bank fraud.

commie said...


I think you can safely assume Cohen's equity line loan was typical for that type.

Typical for paying off a porn star in the name of donnie is not typical anything asshole...


President Trump's personal lawyer Michael Cohen said he transferred $130,000 to adult-film actress Stormy Daniels from his home equity line as scrutiny rises over the reported nondisclosure payment from October 2016.

Cohen told ABC News that "the funds were taken from my home equity line and transferred internally to my LLC account in the same bank." The comments came the same day as a report that Cohen used his Trump Organization email to facilitate the payment.

wphamilton said...

Reread the post, and explain to me how your argument "knocks down" the crux of my argument...

You argued by analogy, supposing that a candidates parents donated the maximum allowed to his campaign, then bought him a nice suit. No one would prosecute the parents for a campaign finance violation. Which I think is correct. You reasoned that a lawyer (such as Cohen) giving a gift to his client (such as Trump) should be held to the same standard.

The refutation is that the two situations are vastly different. ONE of the differences is that parents may plausibly buy nice suits for their children anyway, but lawyers do not plausibly gift clients with payoffs to their mistresses (or prostitutes or whatever). That such payoff is a violation of Bar Association ethics is one way to demonstrate that fact. Therefore your defense, your analogy, is refuted.

Commonsense said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Commonsense said...

Typical for paying off a porn star in the name of donnie is not typical anything asshole...

Just think of it as withdrawing an advance on you credit card to pig out at the Golden Corral.

Why would VISA care what you use the money for? Why would you tell them?

wphamilton said...

Lying on the application for a bank loan is bank fraud. You can argue until you're blue in the face, that it doesn't matter what you spend it on, that a bank shouldn't care, or the other objections I see here, but the fact remains that lying to the bank to obtain the loan is banking fraud.

If you think that Rosenstein has a lot to answer for, that's right. You should expect to see those answers on a charging document, or in a public statement, or civil lawsuit, if no charges are ever filed.

C.H. Truth said...

Lying on the application for a bank loan is bank fraud.

What makes you believe that his home equity line was new?

Sounds an awful lot like it was an existing line of credit.

Commonsense said...

Lying on the application for a bank loan is bank fraud.

The point is that there was no lying nor was there a need to.

If you're not asked what you are going to use the money, then there is no lie.

It doesn't matter how you use the money.

C.H. Truth said...

You argued by analogy, supposing that a candidates parents donated the maximum allowed to his campaign, then bought him a nice suit.

I argued that particular example to show that how this particular application of the law would prevent someone from purchasing any number of things that are not directly related to the campaign, but still could be argued were helpful to the campaign.

The suit cannot be purchased by the campaign, because it's considered personal use. But if you also conclude that it cannot be otherwise purchased (without it being a campaign contribution) because it's "something of value" for the campaign (which seems to be a new definition of a campaign contribution).

Then you have effectively made it somehow illegal for anyone around a candidate to purchase a suit for him to wear.


The same argument is holding true with the non-disclosure agreement. By demanding that something that cannot be paid for by the campaign (because it's not a legitimate use of campaign funds), but also cannot be paid for outside the campaign (because it's considered a campaign contribution and over the limit of what you can contribute)...

it is effectively making the legal agreement somehow illegal?

Loretta said...

"that it doesn't matter what you spend it on, that a bank shouldn't care, or the other objections I see here, but the fact remains that lying to the bank to obtain the loan is banking fraud."

The bank doesn't CARE what you spend it on.

You DO realize the home is used as collateral, right?

The bank ONLY cares that the home is x amount of dollars... worth the amount of the loan.

Geez, this ain't rocket science.

Loretta said...

"Sounds an awful lot like it was an existing line of credit."

Common practice with attorneys.

They don't have accounts receivables or inventory to use as collateral.

Anonymous said...

Chain Store Sales
Released On 4/12/2018 For Mar, 2018
Highlights
Chain stores are reporting mostly higher sales results in March which is no surprise given this year's early Easter which pulled April sales forward. This calendar effect will be adjusted for in the government's month-to-month data but adjustments for big effects are sometimes less than perfect. That said, today's results point to a rise in unadjusted retail sales for March which, after adjustment, may prove to be closer to steady than a big gain or loss."

Yep

Anonymous said...

Trump keeps winning.

The non-sense of the so called investigation is not stopping Trump.

Highlights
Jobless claims decreased 9,000 in the April 7 week to 233,000...

wphamilton said...

The point is that there was no lying nor was there a need to.

So you think you know more about Cohen's finances than do the FBI investigating him. I'll add that to your list.

Anonymous said...

Mike Pompeo, currently the director of the CIA, testifies in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee today as President Trump's nominee to be the next secretary of state. "

He is schooling the liberals.

Commonsense said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

You where Wrong.

US tax revenue increasing as economy grows with tax cuts.

Commonsense said...

So you think you know more about Cohen's finances than do the FBI investigating him. I'll add that to your list.

I know what they leaked was the reason and I know was is typical for an equity line loan and I know the bank didn't file a criminal complaint.

And I know it doesn't add up.

And I know they had best better justify their actions the public.

And I know I don't really care what list you're keeping on me.

wphamilton said...

Blogger C.H. Truth said...Lying on the application for a bank loan is bank fraud. What makes you believe that his home equity line was new?

We are ALL just speculating on what exactly is the source of the suspicion of bank fraud. From what we know, it's most likely related to the NDA payoff, and "home equity line" is from Cohen.

I will bet money that Cohen is lying about some particular, or implying a falsehood by omission. I think that the FBI, and the judge approving a search warrant, are not going to be tripped up by some obvious objection like you're raising. In all likelihood, the "bank fraud" is from lying to the bank about some transaction - likely the loan but possibly something else - probably in an effort to hide the dispossession of the funds.

wphamilton said...

Your list, and this is just *today*

* the DOJ has the same corrupt leadership as during Obama's term
* Lawyer financial aid to clients in litigation is not a Bar Association violation
* referring to an ethics violation is the same as claiming FBI is investigating it
* Kennedy lawyers frequently paid off civil complainants out of pocket.

wphamilton said...

Oh, forgot the latest entry (commonsense's claims, stated in obnoxious fashion, that he can't support):

* the DOJ has the same corrupt leadership as during Obama's term
* Lawyer financial aid to clients in litigation is not a Bar Association violation
* referring to an ethics violation is the same as claiming FBI is investigating it
* Kennedy lawyers frequently paid off civil complainants out of pocket.
* You know that Cohen didn't lie to the bank because there is no reason for it

wphamilton said...

The bank ONLY cares that the home is x amount of dollars... worth the amount of the loan.

Geez, this ain't rocket science.


Why don't you give me MORE details about Cohen's loans, since you're so intimately knowledgeable of them. You're basing your "not rocket science" on literally nothing more than Cohen saying, a month ago, "home equity loan".

Ya think that the FBI might have found out that there was more to it than that? Given that there was a referral made, and a high profile warrant served? "The bank doesn't care", you're just guessing on even that part.

Commonsense said...

Not that I don't mind taking credit but.

the DOJ has the same corrupt leadership as during Obama's term

Didn't say that, I did say this: "The leadership you now trust unquestionably when it comes to Trump."

And "It;s not on your chart now but Mueller was head of the FBI and he's friends with James Comey so he's now part of the same corrupt leadership you trust."

* Lawyer financial aid to clients in litigation is not a Bar Association violation

I believe KD was making that point not me.

You have a rather thin skin when you are wrong.

Anonymous said...

I have been working, with my lawyer for 3 years on a 1031 exchange. Should happen this year.

Anonymous said...

Sen. Sanders and his wife/business partner have committed bank fraud.

C.H. Truth said...

I think that the FBI, and the judge approving a search warrant, are not going to be tripped up by some obvious objection like you're raising

Okay... we just saw an indictment written by Mueller that was supposed to put someone in jail for over 100 years, plead down to almost nothing.

We saw a Judge recently, who ruled against a travel ban recommended by the NSA (who oversees our entire intelligence apparatus) because he didn't think it was necessary based on an article he read in the Washington Post.


Are you really suggesting that prosecutors never exaggerate or that Judges are never easily swayed by dumb arguments?

You used to have a rather healthy skepticism towards our federal authority. Not one to blindly believe that if they did something, that it must be right.

Commonsense said...

Alan Dershowitz: Why the FBI raid on Trump's lawyer hurts all of us

But according to Roger and WP it's OK for the FBI to act like the Gestapo because Trump.

wphamilton said...

I think that you're reaching, into the realm of comedy. There is no way that the FBI investigates "bank fraud" based on his just using a fungible line of credit. It's just arguing for arguing sake.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Loretta said...

"
Why don't you give me MORE details about Cohen's loans, since you're so intimately knowledgeable of them."
I'm going off of what 'you' said, WP.

You're the one claiming bank fraud....with NO intimate knowledge of anything.

Plus, I have enough sense to know what it takes to get a home equity loan.

Banks have regulations and requirements for loans these days, auditors, etc.

"A home equity loan is a type of loan in which the borrower uses the equity of his or her home as collateral. The loan amount is determined by the value of the property, and the value of the property is determined by an appraiser from the lending institution."

His net worth around $100 Million bucks...

I don't have an unhealthy obsession with Trump, I'll leave that to you fruitcakes with TDS.

Loretta said...

"But according to Roger and WP it's OK for the FBI to act like the Gestapo because Trump."

They're nuts.

wphamilton said...

But according to Roger and WP it's OK for the FBI to act like the Gestapo because

Alan Dershowitz predicates it all on "except as a last recourse in extremely important cases. From what we know, this case does not meet those stringent standards"

because, and he gives no other reason, some of the material "could probably" have been obtained otherwise. Since the FBI had to show that it could NOT be obtained otherwise, that little gloss-over was disingenuous. The rest of his article looked good though.

wphamilton said...

You're the one claiming bank fraud....with NO intimate knowledge of anything.

Hardly. I told you that the FBI is investigating bank fraud. You're trying to "disprove" it because you "know equity loans".

, I'll leave that to you fruitcakes with TDS.

Fruitcake is declaring that every investigation of anyone associated with Trump must be "fake" because, "Trump".

Loretta said...

"Fruitcake is declaring that every investigation of anyone associated with Trump must be "fake" because, "Trump"."

Obviously isn't fake.

Nice try.

Commonsense said...

Fruitcake is declaring that every investigation of anyone associated with Trump must be "fake" because, "Trump".

No it more the lynch mob hysteria from the media that surrounds the investigation that makes one especially skeptical.

wphamilton said...



Well, that was a non-factual statement CS made, and you agreed with here, because as I told CH a day or two ago I do NOT approve of such raids. He's just making stuff up again, but that one doesn't make his list because it's just a meaningless insult.

wphamilton said...

No it more the lynch mob hysteria from the media that surrounds the investigation

I don't even read that crap. Just look for the facts, and you can objectively evaluate them. Along with the flaws, such as the glossing over in the Dershowitz article.

Commonsense said...

You just spent that last two days defending the raid.

Anonymous said...

HB can't take out a home Equity loan.

He does not own a home.

wphamilton said...

You just spent that last two days defending the raid.

I've spent the last two days pointing out objective facts about the raid. When that starts looking like "defending" it, it's a clue that your perceptions are skewed.

I don't think that the FBI, or local law enforcement, should have the right to search and seizure period, unless there is a known and immediate danger to someone's well-being or property. Think about it objectively; why should the mere reasonable suspicion of a crime be enough justification for it? Especially when they don't really stop crimes anyway, but mainly come in after the fact? The only reason they have and exercise that power is to make their job easier. Convenience. So in my opinion, they shouldn't even have the authority unless they're actually arresting someone or there is a public danger.

In the extant case, no agency or officer of the court raids a legal office unless they're damned sure there's an indictment coming out. That isn't speculation or an impression, it's history and precedent. If Cohen isn't charged, someone is in deep kimche. I agree with everyone on that. But by the same token, there's no way they'd even go before a judge let alone execute the raid if they know as little as you think they know. It's not like the traffic cop checking your car out because he's a dick; the consequences are far more severe. More certain.

That's not trusting or defending anyone - it's just basic reasoning from the foundation of knowing a little about it.

Anonymous said...

WP, tosses the US Constitution aside.

C.H. Truth said...

If Cohen isn't charged, someone is in deep kimche. I agree with everyone on that. But by the same token, there's no way they'd even go before a judge let alone execute the raid if they know as little as you think they know.

B.S. There will be no consequences if they don't end up charging Cohen with anything substantial. At this point there is no reason to believe that they wanted anything other than information on the so called "pay offs" and what he was possibly hiding from the public (which isn't even illegal).

Nobody has even come up with anything conceivable other than a dubious possible $150,000 bank fraud, and ethics violation, and a campaign contribution violation.

I simply don't trust that they have any more for this. I am not sure why you believe that a judge would otherwise reject it. I think they rubber stamp things in many of these cases.

wphamilton said...

What possible use is information on the so-called payoffs? They can't make it public, can't even leak it. Can't use it to prosecute any crimes that are fished up from it. Anyone who sees it can't even work on any case related to it.

Yes of course a judge would reject a baseless request to raid a lawyer's office for privileged information. I don't know that it's ever happened, and I think I would have heard about it. Have even any of the hoary Conservative analysts that you like to read come up with a hint of precedent, that it's ever happened? You know they would, if it had.

C.H. Truth said...

So WP...

It's your fundamental position that everything being leaked from "people with Knowledge of the investigation" is wrong?

Because everything being reported at this time, states that this is entirely about payouts and whether or not proceeds from particular loans were used for these payouts.

They are citing a 2014 loan against his taxi-company, his 2015 real estate loan, and a $150,000 payoff to the porn star as all being connected to "bank fraud and campaign finance violations".


So I guess the simple question is this:

if, in fact, the FBI was only interested in a $150,000 payoff which they claim is bank fraud and campaign finance violations...

would you still insist that this raid was proper and justified?

wphamilton said...

Communications about the payoffs that are relevant to the crime are fair game, not privileged. I thought you realized that, and were worried about the use for ancillary purposes. Otherwise, what's your point?

C.H. Truth said...

WP...

It has nothing to do with whether or not information is relevant. It has to do with whether or not the FBI should be raiding a President's personal lawyer over some dubious claims over a $150,000 payoff.

Are you seriously too far gone to see how this looks?

wphamilton said...

No I can see how this looks - to you. You think that the raid should never have happened, that anything arising from it is fruit from the poisoned tree, and that it breaks any potential case made against the President's lawyer.

But, I'm telling you that legally speaking, you are incorrect. Legally, any information which is relevant to the crime is NOT protected by attorney/client privilege. When you asked me, I have speculated that the FBI was looking for communications between himself and Trump or his associates about the matter of the payoffs. Recent news coverage has born me out on that. Such communications are relevant to the potential crime of campaign finance violations, and would therefore be unprivileged.

I also strongly suspect, again speculation at your request, that Cohen had communications regarding his reimbursement in some fashion. Probably not fungible currency, given his efforts to obscure the transactions, but some kind of favor or deal that benefits him. That also would not be covered by privilege.

C.H. Truth said...

that anything arising from it is fruit from the poisoned tree,

Well that all depends on how they handle what they seized. Generally there are manners in which these things are done, including turning any potential questionable information to a third party or even a judge for review. If they follow all the obligated protocols and other DOJ guidelines... then that portion of this becomes moot. But I am not convinced (based on past behavior) that they are willing to error on the side of caution. As long as the FBI has this information, I am not convinced that they will not be wallowing through it. This is the result of a growing distrust for many of us for the FBI and Special Counsel (especially as they continue to move deeper into political investigations) . You can disagree and claim that they should be trusted... but that really doesn't change how many Americans feel.

Certainly any communications that involve actually committing or planning a criminal act is not privileged. But here is the rub...

If the FBI decides that something is a criminal act that eventually turns out to not be a criminal act... then that communication "should have been" privileged, even as they treated it as if it wasn't.

That would allow the FBI to simply claim that they believe something might be a crime (and then have free reign to view otherwise privileged information).


But my bigger issue is that the attorney was cooperating. He's got absolutely no criminal record. Not ever arrested, not investigated. Never a hint of someone who worked outside the law.

Even based on the worst we know, the potential charges would be minimal. A bank transaction of $150 thousand? Campaign violation? An ethics violation? No indication that what he supposedly did was something he was "continuing" or that his future potential actions were harmful.

Not worthy of a full scale raid, as if Cohen was some high level crime lord running a multi-billion dollar crime syndicate that needed to be broken up.

wphamilton said...

"Well that all depends on how they handle what they seized." - you are correct.

"Generally there are manners in which these things are done, including turning any potential questionable information to a third party or even a judge for review. " - I don't know that this is generally how it's handled, but I'd say it is a good idea. The problem could arise though that a third party wouldn't know the significance of what they were looking at, the way an agent with detailed knowledge of the investigation would. The problem with using agents is that they are then disqualified from the investigation, and disqualified from subsequently investigating any of Cohen's clients. So there's a trade-off either way.

"If the FBI decides that something is a criminal act that eventually turns out to not be a criminal act... then that communication "should have been" privileged, even as they treated it as if it wasn't." - This is exactly why I said that Cohen had better be charged with something, or else someone is in deep kimche. If there are no eventual charges, then the FBI seized privileged information ... for nothing. I think that elements of the organization do not survive that.

"But my bigger issue is that the attorney was cooperating." Cohen said he was, the FBI said he wasn't. Depending on what comes out of it, we'll see if that's actually true or not.

C.H. Truth said...

The problem could arise though that a third party wouldn't know the significance of what they were looking at, the way an agent with detailed knowledge of the investigation would.

I don't believe that they should have knowledge of the investigation or consider whether or not client/attorney communication has significance to it.

The idea is that a third party (even if that is another FBI agent unfamiliar with the case) would go through the materials, and weed out anything that is considered privileged client/attorney communications. I don't want someone making a decision regarding privilege who would take into consideration whether or not it is significant to the investigation.

It should only matter whether it is privileged based on an objective view point.

Obviously a judge or an agent could tell if that communication was about the attorney committing a crime (that wasn't him or her talking to their own personal attorney after the fact) or obviously "planning" a crime.

But the entire idea of privilege is that a client can be open and honest to his/her attorney about past behavior that they are seeking counsel for. The Attorney is bound to hold that communication private (unless it's about committing a future crime). So even if a client admits to a previous criminal act. That communication is still considered privileged. In fact, that's entirely the point of it. Otherwise, anything and everything said to an attorney could be raised in court, and a client would never reveal anything to his attorney, who would then not have the information needed to defend them (or make a decision about defending them).