Wednesday, May 2, 2018

Report: Mueller threatens Trump lawyers with subpoena?

So the most recent buzz is that Special Counsel has suggested to Trump's legal team that if the President refuses to sit down with investigators and answer their questions, that Mueller could (or that he would) "issue a subpoena" to force Trump to testify before a Grand Jury. The most likely outcome to a subpoena to force the President to testify would be a prolonged court fight. The least likely outcome to a subpoena to force the President to testify would be acquiescence.

To review the situation here, let's remember that this case appears to be the mirror image of the Clinton investigation. Whereas Clinton objectively broke the letter of the law with several of her actions, she was non-the-less provided a legal pass because the powers to be determined that there was no "intent" to harm anyone. On the flip side, Trump has not objectively broken any laws with any of his actions, but there is much speculation that the powers to be are trying to argue that his legal actions could be "illegal" because of some sort of criminal intent.

Given that as the background for the questioning, and given that the President is being cited as a "subject" of an investigation, it seems clear that the intention of such an interview would be to determine if investigators can tie together (from his testimony) some proof of nefarious intent, which would then allow them to possibly move him from "subject" to "target" or even recommend some sort of criminal charge (whether that be through an indictment or recommendation of impeachment).

Under normal circumstance, a criminal suspect cannot be subpoenaed to testify in regards to their own criminal case. Under normal circumstances only a witness to someone else's crime can be forced by subpoena to testify. But of course, Trump is not a criminal suspect (or a criminal target) and that is where the laws become sort of murky.

Under Grand Jury rules, Mueller could subpoena the President to testify before a Grand Jury, but the President would still maintain full fifth amendment rights against self incrimination. Given that much of questioning would be specifically to get the President to somehow testify against himself, it seems obvious that the President would not be constitutionally required to answer a lion's share of the questions. The very intent of the line of questioning Mueller is looking to take, makes whatever answers the President gives possibly "incriminating" because they would rely on someone's  interpretation of those answers. Which, of course, becomes a serious problem whenever you attempt to turn perfectly legal actions into criminal actions, based on some degree of "intent".

So even if the President considered himself completely innocent, he could still invoke the 5th amendment right, based on a fair belief that his answers could be use by Special Counsel to bring possible recommendations of charges.

Now given that Grand Juries are by nature secret, and closed to the public, there would be no good reason for anyone to ever "know" whether or not a witness (even the President) pleaded the fifth. But obviously as a matter of potential leaks, the President would prefer "not" to plead the fifth for optics sake. The preference would be to argue executive privilege for anything that is a part of what he does (or can do as President). He could argue executive privilege as it pertains to the firing of James Comey, he could argue executive privilege as it pertains to any conversations with subordinates, as well as arguing executive privilege as it pertains to any possible Presidential Pardons.

So given the extraordinary nature of this situation, such a subpoena would be ripe for legal challenges that a normal Grand Jury subpoena would not be. I will be curious how certain legal experts see this shaking out, and to some degree I will withhold full judgement till I gather those opinions. But it's clear to me that this situation may escalate fairly quickly and we just may see such a court fight.

127 comments:

Loretta said...

"I don't remember" seems to work for liberals.

Anonymous said...

Washington Post Hillary Clinton told the FBI she couldn't recall something more than three dozen times

By Aaron Blake
September 2, 2016 at 3:52 PM

Anonymous said...

Under today's US CONSTITUTION, no one can be forced to speak. If one is forced by force or threat of force the statement given is null and void.

caliphate4vr said...

POLITICS
The Short And Ugly History Of The Disastrous Iran Deal
From beginning to end, the deal has been a disaster for the United States.


The pathetic legacy of Obumble continues to crumble

Loretta said...

I distinctly remember liberals lecturing us that it the "deal" was made with the moderates, and they wouldn't lie....

Not sure what can be done now. France, Germany and the UK have already made BIG oil deals with the devil.

Anonymous said...

Blogger Loretta said...

I distinctly remember liberals lecturing us that it the "deal" was made with the moderates, and they wouldn't lie....



David Burge


@iowahawkblog
Apr 30
More

I have a hard time believing a foreign policy brain trust made up of America's top failed novelists and campaign van drivers could get things wrong

21 replies 325 retweets 922 likes
Reply 21 Retweet 325 Like 922
Show this thread

https://twitter.com/iowahawkblog/status/991012375380742145


Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Ty Cobb quit

James said...

Yep, he did, and someone seems to feel a need to prepare for possible impeachment:
______________

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - White House lawyer Ty Cobb is leaving his post, likely by the end of May, the New York Times quoted him as telling the paper on Wednesday.
He will likely be replaced by veteran Washington lawyer Emmet Flood, who advised former President Bill Clinton in impeachment proceedings, the Times reported, citing two people briefed on the matter.


Neither Cobb nor Flood immediately responded to requests for comment by Reuters.

Teresa Dulyea-Parker said...

James Boswell of Normal, Illinois is a pedophile and admits it.

Loretta said...

I keep putting up that Teresa comment about James because I am too stupid to put up something better.

James said...

I'm such a fucking loser, no one reads my spam.

James, not spamming, said...

If the President is subpoenaed and is asked searching questions that are legitimately linked to a possible attempt to obstruct justice on his part, sitting there and yelling "Hoax!" and "Witch hunt!" will not work.

Commonsense said...

If the President is subpoenaed and is asked searching questions

The point is if you're searching then you don't have evidence for a crime.

FOAD should be Trump's only answer.

Anonymous said...

Clearly we have lost WP.
So, CH, if Trump has General Mattis shoot Mueller in the head, that would not be a crime because Trump has the Constitutional authority to command the military."

UCMJ
ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders."

wphamilton said...

I don't think this scenario is possible for Mueller. He might be able to compel Trump to answer with respect to campaign staff actions, but not as a criminal suspect. It looks to me like a psych game, trying to apply pressure through public appeal.

wphamilton said...

Proving that you don't understand the question posed to Coldheart.

CH: By your reasoning, if Trump ordered General Kelley to shoot Mueller in the head, that wouldn't be illegal because Trump has the plenary Constitutional authority to command the military. That is logically applying your own standard to a hypothetical action.

So tell me CH, what would make that illegal or prosecutable?

Anonymous said...

Why is it so important to remove President Trump?

Anonymous said...

Reuters Poll: Black Male Approval For Trump Doubles In One Week




Anonymous said...

WP is lost.

The slow decline was fun to watch.

Anonymous said...

Kanye West Effect

C.H. Truth said...

The President has the authority to fire people or have people fired.

He has no authority to shoot an American citizen or order anyone else to shoot an American citizen.

The fact that WP doesn't see a distinction is sort of alarming.

Anonymous said...

sort of alarming."

The fact that WP has Homicidal thoughts are unsettling.

caliphate4vr said...

He has no authority to shoot an American citizen or order anyone else to shoot an American citizen.

Obumble did in a drone strike and the left cheered...

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Rudy Giuliani said tonight on Hannity that Trump reimbursed Cohen for the Stormy Daniels $130,000 silence funds.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

https://youtu.be/vrIL_HZiJ_k

You have to watch this.

Loretta said...

"The fact that WP doesn't see a distinction is sort of alarming."

But not surprising.

Loretta said...

The art of the deal!

Willie Jeff had to shell out over $700,000...Trump only $130,000.

Myballs said...

Actually he said trump reimbursed cohen for expenses.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

WASHINGTON (AP) — In a startling revelation, President Donald Trump's lawyer Rudy Giuliani said Wednesday that Trump repaid his personal attorney $130,000 in a deal made just before the 2016 election to keep porn star Stormy Daniels quiet about her tryst with the president, directly contradicting Trump's statements about the hush money.

During an appearance on Fox News Channel's "Hannity," the former New York City mayor and U.S. attorney said the money to repay Michael Cohen had been "funneled ... through the law firm and the president repaid it."

Asked if Trump knew about the arrangement, Giuliani said: "He didn't know about the specifics of it, as far as I know. But he did know about the general arrangement, that Michael would take care of things like this, like I take care of things like this for my clients. I don't burden them with every single thing that comes along. These are busy people."

The comments contradict statements made by Trump several weeks ago, when he said he didn't know about the payment to Daniels as part of a nondisclosure agreement she signed days before the presidential election.

Asked aboard Air Force One whether he knew about the payment, Trump said flatly: "No." Trump also said he didn't know why Cohen had made the payment or where he got the money.

In a phone interview with "Fox and Friends" last week, however, Trump appeared to muddy the waters, saying that Cohen represented him in the "crazy Stormy Daniels deal."

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

How he reimbursed Cohen is the issue. And actually where did the money come from. Is the real issue.

Commonsense said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...


Blogger Loretta said...
The art of the deal!

Willie Jeff had to shell out over $700,000...Trump only $130,000.


it was $800,000 that bubba had to shell out, and he had to go begging to friends to raise the $$$.

trump paid cohen out of the change he found in the seat cushions of his private jet.

Commonsense said...

Actually he said trump reimbursed cohen for expenses.

Details to the Trump hating media.

But to burst Roger's bubble, Giuliani said the funds came from Trump's personal account and not the campaign.

In other words, there's no nefarious illegal plot.

Anonymous said...


Blogger Roger Amick said...

How he reimbursed Cohen is the issue. And actually where did the money come from. Is the real issue.



yeah, that's it alky. trump paid cohen back in rubles.

pop another opioid. it'll be alright.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reuters Poll: Black Male Approval For Trump Doubles In One Week



wait a minute. LBJ told us he'd "have those ni@@ers votin' democrat for the next 200 years."

and it's actually a black guy who's come along to fuck that all up?

heh.


Anonymous said...




The fact that WP doesn't see a distinction is sort of alarming.


well, it just goes to show that even the most logical people can succumb to the grip of TDS.


Loretta said...

Ahem...

*seemingly logical people

Anonymous said...



yeah, that ship has sailed, hasn't it?

Anonymous said...

The Clinton running low on cash are re'firing the cash cow. The Clinton Crime Family Foundation. A slight change, like all scams allows them to personally pocket 10's of millions . And begin a new shake down.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Anything regarding the campaign is campaign money, no matter what the source.

Anonymous said...

A must Read:


caliphate4vrMay 2, 2018 at 11:20 AM
POLITICS
The Short And Ugly History Of The Disastrous Iran Deal
From beginning to end, the deal has been a disaster for the United States.

The pathetic legacy of Obumble continues to crumble.

Anonymous said...

How long will this standard of the opium addicted hold.

"Anything regarding the campaign is campaign money, no matter what the source"

Hillary used campaign money to pay 7 Non-Americans two Brits and 5 Russians for a fiction piece.

That was OK???

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Campaign finance watchdog groups have filed complaints with the Federal Election Commission and Justice Department alleging that the then-secret payment amounted to an illegal campaign expenditure.

On Wednesday night, Giuliani argued that the payment to Daniels could not have violated campaign finance laws because no campaign money was involved.



Larry Noble, general counsel for the nonpartisan Campaign Legal Center, said Giuliani’s statements do not end the questions about possible campaign finance violations — and in fact could point to further concerns.

“What is surprising is that Trump recently said he knew nothing about the payment. Now, Giuliani is trying to get the stories in sync, but this still leaves several potential violations,” Noble said. “The timing of the payment is still strong evidence of it being campaign-related. And the fact that Trump paid Cohen back strengthens that argument.”

Michael Avenatti, an attorney for Daniels, said Giuliani’s comments were an indication of campaign finance violations and possibly bank fraud and money laundering.

“According to Mr. Giuliani, Mr. Trump and Mr. Cohen were co-conspirators in a felony,” he said. “Now it is time for justice to be served, and we intend to serve it.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/giuliani-trump-repaid-lawyer-cohen-for-stormy-daniels-settlement/2018/05/02/526cde54-4e76-11e8-84a0-458a1aa9ac0a_story.html?utm_term=.1f6c53653dd7

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

HE said on Air Force One that he never paid the silence money . Last night his own lawyer stated that he made the payment.

He lied again and non of you give a flying fuck.

Commonsense said...

That has to be one of the stupidest, most TDS infected thing Roger has ever said.

He argued right here Hillary Clinton's charity had nothing to do with her campaign.

But now a candidate personal fortune is part of the campaign because Trump.

wphamilton said...

He has no authority to shoot an American citizen or order anyone else to shoot an American citizen.

You think it's because it's an American citizen? But as you argue, Trump has the Constitutional authority to command the military, and that's not subject to judicial review. So now you're telling me that it's about what the order itself is, or about who is affected by the order? What happened to the authority being the only thing that matters, period end of story?

Or is it your argument that it only apply to some things and not others for the President?

wphamilton said...

Assuming that President Clinton told Janet Reno to finish the Branch Davidian situation in Waco, he would have ordered the FBI to kill a bunch of American citizens. Are you saying that was an illegal order, CH?

Loretta said...

"But now a candidate personal fortune is part of the campaign because Trump"

Like Rat said...

"trump paid cohen out of the change he found in the seat cushions of his private jet."

Commonsense said...

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump 41m minutes ago

Mr. Cohen, an attorney, received a monthly retainer, not from the campaign and having nothing to do with the campaign, from which he entered into, through reimbursement, a private contract between two parties, known as a non-disclosure agreement, or NDA. These agreements are very common among celebrities and people of wealth. In this case it is in full force and effect and will be used in Arbitration for damages against Ms. Clifford (Daniels). The agreement was used to stop the false and extortionist accusations made by her about an affair despite already having signed a detailed letter admitting that there was no affair. Prior to its violation by Ms. Clifford and her attorney, this was a private agreement. Money from the campaign, or campaign contributions, played no roll in this transaction.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

The cover up and the lie are important in regards to the President of the United States.


Donald J. Trump
‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump
47m47 minutes ago

Mr. Cohen, an attorney, received a monthly retainer, not from the campaign and having nothing to do with the campaign, from which he entered into, through reimbursement, a private contract between two parties, known as a non-disclosure agreement, or NDA. These agreements are.....


Donald J. Trump
‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump
39m39 minutes ago

...very common among celebrities and people of wealth. In this case it is in full force and effect and will be used in Arbitration for damages against Ms. Clifford (Daniels). The agreement was used to stop the false and extortionist accusations made by her about an affair,......


Donald J. Trump
‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump
34m34 minutes ago

...despite already having signed a detailed letter admitting that there was no affair. Prior to its violation by Ms. Clifford and her attorney, this was a private agreement. Money from the campaign, or campaign contributions, played no roll in this transaction.


He tries to deny the affair even though he never specifically denied the affair. He's lying to the people of the United States and there is no excuse fro this for our President.

Loretta said...

"The cover up and the lie are important in regards to the President of the United States."

Since when?

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Money from the campaign, or campaign contributions, played no roll in this transaction.

He's in full panic mode and this is not necessarily legal according to many non partisan sources.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Since when?

When he was elected to be he President.

commie said...

And last week donnie denied knowing anything about the 130K ,. As I have said before, when you are a liar, you have to have perfect memory. When 2 are lying....there is no hope of consistency.....And our menstral once again auto fellates his support of donnie and buys into another pile of BS from his lying leader...Wonder if donnie listed the loan on his campaign finance forms....If not, he surely is fucked now!!!! Huge Chuckle....repent, the end is near!!!!! Enjoy, it is going to get real bad quickly....LOL

Commonsense said...

Quite the contrary, I think they are getting ahead of the story since the records are in the DOJ's possession and was bound to be leaked anyhow.

Better to spin it your way first.

commie said...

Wonder how happy Malodorous is???? Oh well, trump sure don't have enough blood to run both heads simultaneously!!! Hope she cuts his nuts off!!!!

Commonsense said...

Since when?

Since Trump. ☺

commie said...

Too bad loreetta wasn't there....she could have collected thousands of dollars from donnie for doing nothing.....Too funny!!!

Commonsense said...

He's in full panic mode and this is not necessarily legal according to many non partisan sources.

You mean CNN?, Slate? TPM? Those sources?

Your funny Roger.

commie said...

, I think they are getting ahead of the story since the records

BWAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!! Leading from behind.....yeah keep rationalizing, you got nothing else....CHUCKLE!!!!!!

commie said...

ou mean CNN?,

I saw Turley make that comment...Keep praying, it is all you got....LOL

Commonsense said...

C'mon guys, do you really think Rudy Giuliani went off the reservation?

Think!!

His appearance on Hannity and the things he was saying were approved by Trump.

Commonsense said...

The Kenye effect.

A poll taken on April 22, 2018 had Trump’s approval rating among black men at 11 percent, while the same poll on April 29, 2018 pegged the approval rating at 22 percent. It should be noted that Reuters only sampled slightly under 200 black males each week and slightly under 3,000 people overall.

Trump experienced a similar jump in approval among black people overall, spiking from 8.9 percent on April 22 to 16.5 percent on April 29.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

TIMING

Giuliani's insistence the money had nothing to do with the campaign is complicated by the fact that Daniels' silence was secured just days before the 2016 presidential election, and as Trump was dealing with the fallout from the "Access Hollywood" tape in which he bragged about sexually assaulting women.

If the payment were wholly personal, said Richard L. Hasen, an expert in election law at the University of California, Irvine, there would be no campaign finance violations.

But Giuliani's argument that the payment was unrelated to the campaign appears to be "pretty far-fetched" given the timing, said Andrew Herman, an attorney specializing in campaign finance law at Miller & Chevalier.

"Certainly, the argument that the government will make is that the $130,000 payment from Michael Cohen to Daniels was a loan to the Trump campaign to keep these allegations secret obviously and then Trump paying Cohen back would be a campaign expenditure" — a loan and expenditure that should have been disclosed to the Federal Election Commission, he said.

Larry Noble, general counsel of the nonpartisan Campaign Legal Center, agreed the timing "is still strong evidence of it being campaign related," as is the reimbursement.

"And if the money was funneled through the law firm as legal fees, as Giuliani suggested, it shows an intent to cover up the source of the funds," he said.

DISCLOSURE:

All campaign expenses, including payments and loans, are supposed to be disclosed to the FEC.

Hasen said the question before Wednesday had been whether Cohen had made an unreported contribution to the Trump campaign exceeding legal limits.

"If this is true, then it looks like Cohen may have made an unreported loan to the campaign rather than a contribution," he said. That could be good news for Cohen, because it would have been up to the president or his campaign to report the loan, not up to Cohen.

"The greatest significance is that it implicates the president, directly," he said. "If it's done with Trump's knowledge ... then now we're talking about something that is related to the campaign and is more serious."

Norm Eisen, who served as an ethics lawyer in the Obama White House and now chairs the left-leaning Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics, which has repeatedly challenged Trump, also said Trump should have disclosed the loan on his federal financial disclosure.

"There's probably a sufficient basis for DOJ to open another investigation about whether the president was candid on his personal financial disclosure," he said.


https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/giuliani-comments-stormy-payment-raise-legal-questions-54899551

commie said...

really think Rudy Giuliani went off the reservation?

No he just said it wrong....LOL.....He opened a pandora's box of trouble....which no one can bullshit his way out of this one....Going to be vastly entertaining to me. Especially you already buying into the BS tweet....Just last week, he knew nothing about the 130k and it turns out he paid off cohen starting in jaunuary....that alone is not good....If the loan was not on his disclosure....more trouble awaits donnie....good....

Anonymous said...

Good morning oPoor. Are you going to be manGina bleeding like WP all day again today?

wphamilton said...

Clearly the President has been lying about his involvement in the NDA, and both he and his lawyer have been lying about the finances of it. Neither of them can be seen as credible in this matter.

But how serious really, is a campaign finance violation, even if you could prove that it was? I think that the only repercussion for Trump is that people will know that Trump was lying and dealing under the table, but we already know that now anyway. His supporters don't seem to care. For Cohen, maybe a problem on top of his other problems. For Trump, how does it hurt him?

commie said...

Are you going to be manGina bleeding like WP all day again today?

BWAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Any chance of you getting a brain?????? No need, trump will provide all the entertainment with his constant lies while you eat a yard of his shit to lick his ass!!!! Too dayum funny!!!

C.H. Truth said...

WP...

I have no clue what you are getting at, other than some attempt to strawman the arguments being made my many legal experts (including McCarthy, Dershowitz, etc...)


I guess I would fundamentally disagree with your argument that a President can order a summary execution as you describe.

I would also fundamentally disagree with your argument that there is not a distinction between a legitimate military or law enforcement action, and simply shooting someone in the head.


Lastly, I would argue that none of this has anything to do with the question at hand.. which is whether or not the President has the authority to fire an FBI director without a buddy of that former director threatening to get a Grand Jury subpoena in order to ask him why he did it.


You seem awful confused by your own argument. There is a significant difference between ordering a known illegal action and the argument that you can be charged with processing a legal action because of some sort of nefarious intent.

Anonymous said...



Jane. WP and HB failed so can you succeed.

"obstructing justice"

Who was obstructed and for doing what,exactly?

commie said...

. For Trump, how does it hurt him?

Ask Malodorous!!!! Reminds me of the "I never had sex with that women" ! The irony is breathtaking!!!!!

wphamilton said...

No one cares about your rhetorical question KD. Google it if you're unclear.

wphamilton said...

commie, the difference is that they don't care if Trump lies, about anything really. Trump openly brags about lying, and they apparently take the cue from him and are proud that he does.

Anonymous said...

President Mob Boss Nazi Trump has secured the release of three Americans held by NK.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Rudy Giuliani just admitted on Fox & Friends that Trump was forced to pay this $130k because it was so close to the election.

Even if this money did not come from the Campaign bank accounts, paying hush money in order to help the campaign would be ILLEGAL!

Thanks Again Rudy!

wphamilton said...

I would also fundamentally disagree with your argument that there is not a distinction between a legitimate military or law enforcement action, and simply shooting someone in the head.

What, specifically, would you argue that the difference is? Between ordering a Reno to kill Branch Davidians and a legitimate law enforcement action?

Anonymous said...

Wp, you failed already as did little lady Lynn.

Jane can speak for herself.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Trump was forced to pay this $130k because it was so close to the election.

The release of the information prior to the election would have been an impact upon the election. This is a violation of campaign regulations. It is very likely to have an investigation into the legality of the of the silencing funds.

commie said...

rump openly brags about lying, and they apparently take the cue from him and are proud that he does.

That is evident here by the weak minded sycophants that drool over every phrase trump utters or tweets....The moral fabric of this country is deteriorating because of blind ideology and not caring except for their stingy self serving needs... btw keep up the CH beatings!! I am enjoying the ass kicking and his spin trying to look like a winnah!!!!

Commonsense said...

Roger is now making up law as he goes along.

wphamilton said...

"the question at hand.. which is whether or not the President has the authority to fire an FBI director without a buddy of that former director threatening to get a Grand Jury subpoena in order to ask him why he did it. "

That's actually three questions.

Does the President have the authority to fire the FBI director? Yes.

Can that firing be illegal? Yes

Can the President legally interfere with a lawful investigation into his own misdeeds? No.

Where I'm leading you relates to the second question, under what conditions can an authorized action be illegal?

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

No I am not.

Campaign law requires that any effort to affect the outcome of the election is subject to campaign law. Its not just my opinion. You are intentionally avoiding asking yourself as to did this money to silence Daniels affect the outcome of the election? Yes or no?

caliphate4vr said...

What, specifically, would you argue that the difference is? Between ordering a Reno to kill Branch Davidians and a legitimate law enforcement action?

Reno killing Branch Davidians occurred, shooting Mueller is only in your fevered mind

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

In a gaggle of reporters at the WH just now, Sarah Sanders refused to answer multiple questions about why she and the president made statements about the Daniels case that we now know to be untrue,” reports CNN’s Abby Phillip. “Sanders insisted she couldn’t comment because of ongoing litigation.”

Loretta said...

"the difference is that they don't care if Trump lies, about anything really. Trump openly brags about lying, and they apparently take the cue from him and are proud that he does."

Actually, the difference here is we don't care about trivial matters.

We've lived through a rapist in the oval office...

...we'll live through a President having adulterous, consensual sex on his own dime.

Loretta said...

LOL.

Someone grab a fire extinguisher, Roger's head is on fire, LMAO!!

Myballs said...

President clinton fired then fbi director william sessions in 1993. I'm outraged.

wphamilton said...

If I'd picked a hypothetical less obviously illegal, caliphate4vr, you folks would have argued incessantly about it.

Funny that no one can get past "it's obviously illegal" to be willing to venture why that would be an illegal order. Maybe it's too abstract for the audience?

In which case would it be illegal for Clinton to have ordered Janet Reno to kill Branch Davidians in Waco? How would it be legal? Anyone?

wphamilton said...

Actually, the difference here is we don't care about trivial matters.

Exactly what I mean. Among Trump's supporters, his lying to the American public is routinely a trivial matter.

commie said...

Actually, the difference here is we don't care about trivial matters.

IOW"s lying about everything is just fine with me!!! I don't know anything about hush money and now I do.....think malodorous will see that as trivial????? yeah sure!!! But Bill doing the same thing and you were enraged!!!! Sad

C.H. Truth said...

What, specifically, would you argue that the difference is? Between ordering a Reno to kill Branch Davidians and a legitimate law enforcement action?

WP... this went from you arguing that Trump firing Comey was basically the same thing as Trump ordering a General to shoot a subordinate in the head... to whatever the hell it is that you are attempting to garner out of this question.

Perhaps you can just state whatever it is that you believe our point is, rather than keep asking silly questions that have nothing to do with Trump, Mueller, Comey, or obstruction.

Because no matter how hard you try, you are not going to get me to suggest that a President can order a General to shoot someone in the head, or get me to agree that there is no difference between firing an FBI director and ordering what all reasonable people would see as a murder.


Loretta said...

"Exactly what I mean. Among Trump's supporters, his lying to the American public is routinely a trivial matter."

Having an affair on his own dime IS trivial to me.

Lying about it?

I'm used to that too. Willie Jeff and his well-placed cigar set the precedence years ago.

Loretta said...

"Because no matter how hard you try, you are not going to get me to suggest that a President can order a General to shoot someone in the head, or get me to agree that there is no difference between firing an FBI director and ordering what all reasonable people would see as a murder."

You have to admit it was one of his better trolls.

commie said...

Actually, the difference here is we don't care about trivial matters.

IOW"s lying about everything is just fine with me!!! I don't know anything about hush money and now I do.....think malodorous will see that as trivial????? yeah sure!!! But Bill doing the same thing and you were enraged!!!! Sad

Loretta said...

You forgot chuckle.

C.H. Truth said...

Lying about it?

One would assume that there were things that Cohen did as Trump's attorney (speaking in terms of Trump as a billionaire celebrity - rather than a Presidential candidate) that fell under the area of Trump not caring to know all of the details. That would seem consistent with someone like Trump putting someone like Cohen on a $10,000/month retainer. You don't do that with someone whom you are micromanaging the day to day activities.

Trump is probably telling the truth when he stated that he probably didn't know much (if any) about the NDA put together by Cohen and Stormy's attorney. But he's probably lying if he claimed to be 100% in the dark and knew nothing about it. He probably knew the basic idea that Cohen was seeking an agreement, but probably not much else.

I guess at the end of the day, we all understand that whether or not he is telling the truth or lying is determined by what the meaning of the word "is" is.

Loretta said...

"I guess at the end of the day, we all understand that whether or not he is telling the truth or lying is determined by what the meaning of the word "is" is."

HA!

commie said...

we all understand that whether or not he is telling the truth or lying is determined by what the meaning of the word "is" is.

I find it amusing with all the parallels to clinton and how you all were demanding his head while the donnie is pulling the same crap and the trump lying is just trivial to the weak minded....and okay because you adore him....How quaint you are CH. Most interesting on how you can ignore his behavior and accept a POTUS who would sell his mother down the river if it benefited him!!!!

commie said...

The former director of the Office of Government Ethics on Thursday said that revelations that President Trump reimbursed personal attorney Michael Cohen for a payment to adult-film star Stormy Daniels means the president has admitted to filing a false financial disclosure.

Walter Shaub tweeted that “in trying to talk his way out of a campaign finance violation, Trump has admitted to filing a false financial disclosure in 2017.”

"He personally certified that his closure was ‘complete and correct,’” Shaun tweeted.


Yep, the next shoe is about to drop....just another trivial lie that he swore was complete...I bet CH and loretta will slurp up another false statement that means nothing....

commie said...

Even fox says bullshit on the rudy story....

ox senior judicial analyst Andrew Napolitano said Thursday that it is “unworthy of belief” that President Trump reimbursed his personal attorney Michael Cohen and didn't know the money was being used to silence adult-film star Stormy Daniels about an alleged 2006 affair with Trump.

“If Rudy [Giuliani] wants the public to believe that Donald Trump reimbursed Michael Cohen $130,000 and didn’t know what it was for, didn’t know that it was going to silence Stormy Daniels, that is unworthy of belief,” said Napolitano, a former New Jersey Superior Court judge.


He described Trump as a “man who knows where every one of his nickels has gone.”

Giuliani, the former New York City mayor now serving on the president's legal team, told Fox’s Sean Hannity in an interview on Wednesday night that Trump reimbursed Cohen for the $130,000 payment to Daniels.

wphamilton said...

Because no matter how hard you try, you are not going to get me to suggest that a President can order a General to shoot someone in the head

I don't want you to. I want you to acknowledge that a Constitutionally authorized action by the President can be at the same time illegal. Whether that's ordering a military action or terminating an FBI director, both are constitutional powers, both can be either legal or illegal.

wphamilton said...

Trump is probably telling the truth when he stated that he probably didn't know much (if any) about the NDA put together by Cohen and Stormy's attorney.

It's pretty obvious now that he's lying about that. Trump knew about the NDA, he knew about the payment, and he knew how much and when.

It's also pretty obvious now that my initial surmise about Cohen was also correct. Cohen did not secretly pay the $130,000 out of friendship and loyalty as he claimed, nor was he merely "facilitating a payment" as he later claimed. Cohen had already been authorized to make the payment, and had negotiated, with Trump, how it would be arranged and repaid. You'd have to willingly disregard the evidence and rational thought to believe otherwise.

commie said...

You'd have to willingly disregard the evidence and rational thought to believe otherwise.

And accept that all the stories related by trump and his surrogates were just trivial events and don't matter!!!!!.....just ask loretta....LOLOLOL

C.H. Truth said...

Whether that's ordering a military action or terminating an FBI directo

Firing an FBI director is a specific action in and of itself.

Giving an "order" can literally mean almost anything.


Isn't the false equivalency obvious to you too?

wphamilton said...

all the parallels to clinton and how you all were demanding his head ... Most interesting on how you can ignore his behavior and accept a POTUS (Trump) who would sell his mother down the river if it benefited him!!!!

Not just interesting, but astonishing. It requires deliberate self-deception beyond even unreasonable denial. I have a theory on why people are willing to compromise themselves to that extent for Trump ... I think that once they've nurtured the tribal politics to full bloom, previously an undercurrent of conservative Republican politics, it now takes psychological precedence over other principles. Yet they cannot admit that (just watch the responses to this theory), and therefore the cognitive dissonance compels them to must accept logical impossibilities by thrusting the contradictions downstream. Proclaim that betrayal of the American public with lies is trivial for instance, even when they would never really believe that, because the alternative is an even greater compromise to their self-perception.

wphamilton said...

Giving an "order" can literally mean almost anything. Isn't the false equivalency obvious to you too?

Have you even considered, for example, that "firing an FBI director" is also not specific enough to determine when it is illegal?

Both are specific actions, constitutionally authorized actions. These are identically have the qualities under discussion. Generally within the domain of the President's plenary power, but illegal depending on the context.

Have you acknowledged the fact yet, that Constitutionally authorized actions may be either legal or illegal? Would more examples help your decision?

C.H. Truth said...

Have you even considered, for example, that "firing an FBI director" is also not specific enough to determine when it is illegal?

Not seriously, no!

Have you acknowledged the fact yet, that Constitutionally authorized actions may be either legal or illegal? Would more examples help your decision?

Depends.. would these be more examples of you suggesting that shooting someone in the head is constitutionally authorized if so ordered?

Or do you have any serious examples?

C.H. Truth said...

Not just interesting, but astonishing. It requires deliberate self-deception beyond even unreasonable denial. I have a theory on why people are willing to compromise themselves to that extent for Trump ... I think that once they've nurtured the tribal politics to full bloom, previously an undercurrent of conservative Republican politics, it now takes psychological precedence over other principles. Yet they cannot admit that (just watch the responses to this theory), and therefore the cognitive dissonance compels them to must accept logical impossibilities by thrusting the contradictions downstream. Proclaim that betrayal of the American public with lies is trivial for instance, even when they would never really believe that, because the alternative is an even greater compromise to their self-perception.

Define psychological projection!

wphamilton said...

"Not seriously, no!"

There's your problem then. You think that a constitutionally authorized Presidential action can be illegal, but only if I'm specific enough about it, but you won't even consider it in actual actions taken by President Trump.

"Define psychological projection!"

This blog does a pretty good job of defining that.

Cognitive dissonance arising from tribal politics, that really strikes close to home doesn't it? Just a theory, but a good one I think. I would flesh out what leads me to that, but I suspect that your audience wouldn't appreciate it much ...

C.H. Truth said...

C'mon WP...

Trump drives you batshit crazy. We all see it and know it. Only one of us is trying to equate firing a subordinate with ordering someone shot in the head.

You should at least own that.

For me, Trump is the single most interesting politician of our generation, and provides daily fodder for my blog. I am just enjoying the ride!

wphamilton said...

OK, example: Trump signs an executive order suspending environmental impact rules for oil drills. Consistent with his executive authority under the Constitution, perfectly legal.

But Trump accepted $10,000,000 from the oil exploration company for the executive order. That makes it illegal. The "specific action" of Trump signing that specific executive order may be either legal or illegal, depending on other factors.

Do you acknowledge that as a fact?

wphamilton said...

Only one of us is trying to equate firing a subordinate with ordering someone shot in the head.

Trying to spin it, because you cannot honestly answer. I think that the logical conclusion here is self-evident.

C.H. Truth said...

WP...

Signing the executive order is a perfectly legal action.

Accepting the bribe is an illegal action.


Let's say it wasn't a President, but rather a Senator. The Senator made a key vote in favor of someone who paid that Senator $10,000,000 for that vote. His vote is not only legal, but in some ways almost mandatory. He is not going to be charged with voting. He will be charged with bribery.


So once again, you describe an illegal action (shooting someone in the head or accepting a bribe)... and attempt to attribute it to the legal action in question.

wphamilton said...

It's not bribery without the Executive Order.

It's not Obstruction without the firing.

In each case, the action is legal in isolation. In both cases, the intent of the action may make it illegal.

They are equivalent in those respects.

wphamilton said...

And BTW, how many times has it been written here that no one is claiming that the action of firing Comey could be illegal - but that obstruction of justice is an illegal action, and the firing part of that illegal act?

Firing Comey to facilitate the illegal action of obstruction. Signing an executive order to facilitate the illegal abuse of power. Do you see it now?

C.H. Truth said...

In each case, the action is legal in isolation. In both cases, the intent of the action may make it illegal.

Again. Dead wrong.

It's the act of accepting the money in exchange for some sort of political action that makes the process illegal.

wphamilton said...

And what determines what or whether it's "in exchange for"?

It is the intention of the person providing the money, and the purpose of the person accepting it.

It's not "the act of accepting money". Trump may accept the $10,000,000 and it's not bribery. He'll run afoul of some ethics rules, federal policies, but that's not bribery or abuse of power. But when he signs the EO, he has fulfilled the "in exchange for" part and yes, that is illegal.

The bribery always has to have that action part, or the intention to take that action.

wphamilton said...

By the same token, Obstruction of Justice always has to have the action part, an action with either the effect or intention to impede something official. Even when the action in isolation would be perfectly legal.

The two examples are exactly similar in these respects.

Anonymous said...


For me, Trump is the single most interesting politician of our generation, and provides daily fodder for my blog. I am just enjoying the ride!

same here. and i can't think of a single substantive thing trump has done that i really disagree with. could he ease up on the tweets? sure. other than that i have no significant complaints.

Commonsense said...

It's not bribery without the Executive Order.

Yeah it is, if you give a bribe in exception of a quid pro quo. It's still bribery even if the receiver of the bribe didn't follow through.

wphamilton said...

You are two steps behind, cs.

"The bribery always has to have that action part, or the intention to take that action."

C.H. Truth said...

WP

You are confusing or obscuring the difference between a known criminal action (accepting money in exchange for political favors) and a legal action (firing the FBI director).

You accept money in exchange for a political favor and it's a crime every time. As many times as an FBI director has been fired in the history of our nation, it has never been a crime.

It's not a matter of subjective opinion that someone is accepting money for a political favor. It's an action that is written into the law in black and white as criminal.

You want to compare it to Obstruction of Justice, then compare it to those known actions that are written in black and white into the law. Compare it to destroying evidence. Witness tampering. Bribing an investigator. Perjury.

What you are trying to do here is compare an objective criminal act (accepting a bribe) with a subjective concept that the President committed obstruction for firing the FBI director. They are not the same, no matter how much you want to argue that they are. One is the intention of committing a known black and white objective crime. The other is pure speculation of some subjective argument that a crime was committed without any real evidence (or past precedent) of any such charges ever being brought.


The law is not designed to be very subjective, nor should it be. It shouldn't be up to some prosecutor to decide that perfectly legal (and justified) actions such as firing an FBI director (for due cause) can be declared illegal... just because that prosecutor wants to theorize that that particular action could have had bad intentions.

And it certainly is not the same thing as suggesting that taking a bribe for a political favor is a crime... because that is specifically listed as a criminal action.

The fact that you take this argument as your own, knowing full well that the prosecutor in question is a former FBI director, and friends with the person who was fired is a bit unsettling to me. It seems way more likely that this is James Mueller (either consciously or subconsciously) trying to get payback against an action he didn't personally see as justified or right.


Lastly, you argued previously that in order for something to be a crime, that both sides of the equation needed to be there. As a matter of obstruction, that would mean that there must be evidence that firing an FBI director would somehow be part of a bigger plot to end the investigations in question. There would need to be some follow up evidence that Trump intended to replace Comey with someone who would end the investigation, or otherwise had a plan to order someone else to put an end to the investigation. There was no evidence of this. In fact, by all accounts the President knew (or was advised) that firing Comey would probably add fuel to the fire.

Of course, the fact that the President has the legal authority to have actually ended the investigation if he so chose... also puts some holes in that theory.

Anonymous said...



WP

You are confusing or obscuring the difference between a known criminal action (accepting money in exchange for political favors) and a legal action (firing the FBI director).



i don't think he's even keeping track anymore. i think he's just turned this into one big trolling marathon.


Commonsense said...

"The bribery always has to have that action part, or the intention to take that action."

A public official can be convicted of taking a bribe even though he had no intention of following through on the desired action.

The act of taking the bribe is sufficient enough.

wphamilton said...

LOL, the last two posts, ch, cs, making up law out of pure fantasy with rrb cheerleading.

You guys realize that it's obvious you're faking it, right? Even if you don't understand that you're guessing wrong, you've still got to know when you're faking knowledge. Surely?

Commonsense said...

We just made this up.

18 U.S. Code § 201 - Bribery of public officials and witnesses

(b) Whoever—

(1) directly or indirectly, corruptly gives, offers or promises anything of value to any public official or person who has been selected to be a public official, or offers or promises any public official or any person who has been selected to be a public official to give anything of value to any other person or entity, with intent

(A) to influence any official act; or

(B) to influence such public official or person who has been selected to be a public official to commit or aid in committing, or collude in, or allow, any fraud, or make opportunity for the commission of any fraud, on the United States; or

(C) to induce such public official or such person who has been selected to be a public official to do or omit to do any act in violation of the lawful duty of such official or person;

(2) being a public official or person selected to be a public official, directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity, in return for:

(A) being influenced in the performance of any official act;

(B) being influenced to commit or aid in committing, or to collude in, or allow, any fraud, or make opportunity for the commission of any fraud, on the United States; or

(C) being induced to do or omit to do any act in violation of the official duty of such official or person;

(3) directly or indirectly, corruptly gives, offers, or promises anything of value to any person, or offers or promises such person to give anything of value to any other person or entity, with intent to influence the testimony under oath or affirmation of such first-mentioned person as a witness upon a trial, hearing, or other proceeding, before any court, any committee of either House or both Houses of Congress, or any agency, commission, or officer authorized by the laws of the United States to hear evidence or take testimony, or with intent to influence such person to absent himself therefrom;

(4) directly or indirectly, corruptly demands, seeks, receives, accepts, or agrees to receive or accept anything of value personally or for any other person or entity in return for being influenced in testimony under oath or affirmation as a witness upon any such trial, hearing, or other proceeding, or in return for absenting himself therefrom;

shall be fined under this title or not more than three times the monetary equivalent of the thing of value, whichever is greater, or imprisoned for not more than fifteen years, or both, and may be disqualified from holding any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.


Anonymous said...



You guys realize that it's obvious you're faking it, right? Even if you don't understand that you're guessing wrong, you've still got to know when you're faking knowledge. Surely?


wp, this whole "russia, russia, russia" thing has gone so far off the rails all i can do is laugh in amazement while simultaneously wondering just exactly what the fuck has happened to our republic when the loser of a legitimate election get's to react to it like this.

at this point i'm not faking anything. but mueller is, rosenstein is, and every other asshat even remotely connected to their side of this situation is.

whether you realize it or not you have tacitly endorsed a legal challenged facilitated by a special prosecutor/counsel of every subsequent presidential election from now until the ultimate downfall of the republic. every sore loser has now been given a course of action legitimized by democrats unwillingness to accept the results of a fair election. if mueller had something we'd know it by now. this charade continues until the mid-terms to give the democrats an advantage. the partisanship is toxic and ironically could become the genesis of our undoing.

look, you're a clever guy and you're having fun with this. hell, i've never seen someone so dedicated to multi-post troll as you. good on you for taking it so seriously as to keep it going for this long.

me? i'm going to enjoy the remainder of the trump presidency be it one term or two. as i've said earlier on this thread there is nothing substantive that trump has done that i take issue with. he's increased my personal wealth, improved the economy whether you wish to credit him or not, undone a mountain of absolutely asinine directives by the previous administration, influenced what could be the biggest positive development on the korean peninsula since the original conflict, made significant strides in dealing with our immigration invasion, slapped the shit out of ISIS, and as a bonus he's driven the liberals completely fucking mad.

so please, continue. and consider me a cheerleader not only of the other posters on this thread but for the nation as a whole. i suffered in relative silence for the 8 long disastrous years of the previous administration. we've turned a corner and things are looking up. and i'm good with all of it.