Let's start with this. It is still entirely possible for a Republican to win the popular vote and for a Democrat to win the Electoral college. There has been no profound change to the electorate that precludes these possibilities, as much as certain people seem to act as if our electoral future is cast in some sort of stone.As someone who is *not* super anti-Electoral College, I'm just going to repeat what I said earlier this week, which is that most people trying to defend the Electoral College would be better off saying nothing because their arguments have been really dumb. https://t.co/W4W1pOqlRB— Nate Silver (@NateSilver538) March 22, 2019
But let's be clear about one of the more obvious legal challenges that I have heard nobody address. That a National Election at this point would be unconstitutional. Arguing about it, is much like arguing about abolishing guns while forgetting about that pesky Constitutional amendment that comes between the first and the third. The reality is that very little can be done without a large structural change to how our country governs.
The fact is that we do not have (nor do we have anything remotely in place) to hold a true "National election". Every state holds their own elections with their own rules. In order to get around the inevitable (and inevitably successful) challenges to the equal protection clauses of the constitution, we (as a country) would have to agree on, and our legislatures would have to pass some form of universal election laws.
As of now, the only equal protection challenges have taken place at a state level. Even within the same rules and regulations, there has been some successful challenges based on things like different voting machines and different means of counting votes. (remember Florida 2000). We have recently seen a huge amount of resources being spent in states to get everyone on the same equipment (and we still have a ways to go). Much of this is court orders. Much of it is small scale.
But certainly everyone understands that a State cannot decide that people who live in one town have 10 days before the election to cast ballots, while people from another town only have the ability to cast a ballot on the same day. A state cannot allow one county to use mail in ballots, while another county has to vote in person. A state could not require some people to show voter ID while other people within that same state are not required.
See where I am going with this?
Now imagine the legal battles if you had a national election where one state (California embraces vote harvesting) while all of the other states still have laws that make vote harvesting a crime? It's fine for California to declare their own laws, and make their own determination as to how they will decide elections and how they decide to award their electoral college votes. But you run into a whole set of legal challenges when you decide to pool their votes into a national count, when they are increasing their share based on an action decidedly illegal in the other 49 states. Right now whether California gets 10% voter turnout or 90% voter turnout, their national influence remains the same. So the fact that they increase voter turnout with voter harvesting doesn't really dilute the vote for anyone else. But in a national election....
Quite obviously everything would need to be universal. Nationally. We would have to have a national standard for purging voter rolls. We would have to have a universal standard for voter ID laws. We would have a national standard for absentee and mail in ballots. Almost every state would be required to dump every election law that they have previously fought for, and adopt one universal standard for voting.
Which leads to another fair question. Could the Federal Government even force states to adopt a national voting legal platform? Wouldn't that be a fairly pronounced violation of the multiple amendments that deal with State's rights? In fact, the states are constitutionally provided with the authority to determine how to run their own elections.
Double constitutional whammy. Damned constitution.
Bottom line is that a National popular vote election would be unconstitutional.
It's even possible that the current push by certain states to give their Electoral College votes to the popular vote winner might even be unconstitutional based (again) on many of these same arguments (as well as some others) if people within those states file suit in federal court. I doubt that this "end around" will every garner the required number of electoral college votes to succeed, but even if it did there would be legal hell to pay. The court battles would be nearly limitless.
As has been pointed out, this was not an issue in 2008, or 2012, and it probably will not be an issue again if a Democrat wins back the White House. It's just another example of childish people wanting to change the rules of a game every time they lose.
24 comments:
Might it be possible to interpret the Constitution as supporting the principle of one person, one vote?
There was a time when slaves were not one person.
A breath of fresh air.
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/03/22/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-fox-news-male-hosts-question-obsession/23698518/
irony, coupled with just how fucking stupid the democrat base really is -
warren came out against the EC at a rally in jackson mississippi.
her "abolish the EC" comments received a big round of applause.
those in attendance did not pause to grasp the fact that if they got their wish they would never see another presidential candidate campaign in their area for as long as they live, as their opinion would no longer matter or be counted.
more irony -
i'm old enough to remember the 2000 election, bush v gore, etc.
the big issue then was "voter disenfranchisement."
there is no greater way to disenfranchise more American voters than to abolish the EC.
just once before i die i'd like to see the liberals think through the consequences of their retarded schemes.
There was a time when slaves were not one person.
indeed.
and it was southern DEMOCRATS who were the root cause of that nasty and racist outcome.
don't ever forget that, pederast.
no, it was the founding fathers
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Chews Up Conservative Writer’s Girl Scout Cookie Boycott
Jane Chastain’s “AOC Was A Girl Scout... Just Say No To The Cookies” column was ridiculed by the freshman lawmaker.
By Lee Moran
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) fired back at a conservative writer who called on people to boycott Girl Scout Cookies because of the freshman lawmaker’s past membership in the organization.
Former sportscaster Jane Chastain, 76, also criticized the Girl Scouts for a partnership with International Women’s Day, which falls on Friday, in her column for fringe right-wing website WND ― titled “AOC Was A Girl Scout… Just Say No To The Cookies.”
Chastain railed against the reported socialist origins of International Women’s Day as she lamented how “today’s Girl Scouts are a far cry from those of my youth, which trained us to put God and country before everything else.
“It is little wonder the Girl Scouts have taken a sharp left turn and can be found marching for abortion rights, gun control and other radical feminist events like International Women’s Day,” Chastain added.
Chastain noted that “Girl Scout alums (including Ocasio-Cortez) make up 72 percent of female senators and 60 percent of the women in the 116th Congress.” But only one is Republican.
“So before you decide to embrace an International Women’s Day celebration or buy the cookies, ask yourself, ’Will the country be better off with more representatives like the young socialist Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez?” Chastain asked. “If not, it’s a good time to start your diet.”
Ocasio-Cortez responded on Twitter:
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
✔
@AOC
Boycotting cookies that teach little girls leadership skills to own the libs ���� nice job
I’ll take 10 ��
Twitter Ads info and privacy
The New York lawmaker later highlighted her role in helping establish a Girl Scouts chapter for girls experiencing homelessness:
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
✔
PS I am extraordinarily proud of the role my constituents have played in helping to establish + support Troop 6000, the first-ever @girlscouts troop for girls experiencing homelessness:
\https://www.npr.org/2017/07/26/538551816/a-nyc-scout-troop-provides-homeless-girls-a-place-of-their-own …
NYC Scout Troop Provides Homeless Girls A Place Of Their Own
The 28 members of Girl Scout Troop 6000, and its two co-leaders, live in a shelter in Queens, N.Y. The troop that Giselle Burgess started is the first specifically for girls who are homeless.
Ocasio's tweets were well received online:
Mia Farrow
✔
@MiaFarrow
Bought 20
Dave Hogg
✔
I'll bet they don't boycott alcohol because you were a bartender.
John Iadarola
✔
If they want to forgo enjoying one of the tastiest snacks in America, I say do-si-do you, boo.
Torraine Walker
✔
I don't want Girl Scout cookie problems. Those little girls are more aggressive than Maria Stokes. I'll pay up. ��
rabia O'chaudry
✔
I shall take 100
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
✔
Anjali Kumar
✔
I am definitely buying @girlscouts cookies this year.
BUY THIS COMIC BOOK
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/25/politics/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-comic-book-trnd/index.html
James...
Why do you try so hard to show us how little you know about the Constitution and the law?
Secondly....
Ocasio-Cortez is underwater even in N.Y. - she is a laughing stock. Only a fool would believe anything she says or does has any tangible effect on anyone (other than to create new jokes and memes).
there's a reason some call him a stupid old man
Ocasio-Cortez is underwater even in N.Y. -
and those who deserve credit for her downfall up here are democrats, not republicans.
Did she take a ride over a bridge with a Kennedy.
Robert White Toast O'Rourke said he did not have time to go to the Jewish Conference .
"Liberal group MoveOn.org asked all 2020 presidential candidates to steer clear of the event." The event is AIPAC conference.
C.H. TruthMarch 22, 2019 at 11:34 AM
James...
Why do you try so hard to show us how little you know about the Constitution and the law?"
Jane and gutter drunk Alky know so little about US History and our US Constitution .
Funny, Ch, how the Fox News people so desperately continue to go after her.
warren came out against the EC at a rally in jackson mississippi.
Well good for her....as to never seeing another candidate show up there.....who gives a fuck about jackson Ms!!!!!!
And thus Dennis inadvertently makes the case for the electoral college
The Three-Fifths Compromise was a compromise reached among state delegates during the 1787 United States Constitutional Convention. Whether, and if so, how, slaves would be counted when determining a state's total population for legislative representation and taxing purposes was important, as this population number would then be used to determine the number of seats that the state would have in the United States House of Representatives for the next ten years. The compromise solution was to count three out of every five slaves as a person for this purpose. Its effect was to give the southern states a third more seats in Congress and a third more electoral votes than if slaves had been ignored, but fewer than if slaves and free people had been counted equally. The compromise was proposed by delegate James Wilson and seconded by Charles Pinckney on June 11, 1787.
Yeah, we know this. What's your point?
The Democratic Party was formed in 1792, when supporters of Thomas Jefferson began using the name Republicans, or Jeffersonian Republicans, to emphasize its anti-aristocratic policies. It adopted its present name during the Presidency of Andrew Jackson in the 1830s.
the Fox News people
Like you actually watch Fox news?
The only reason anyone pays attention to AOC is to make fun of her. And to really, really whoop it up over the fact that some people actually think she is offering anything other than half baked fantasies. Make fun of her, and even bigger fun of anyone who supports her.
There is nothing incompatible between differences in state election laws and the concept of a national popular vote for President. That was certainly the mainstream view when the U.S. House of Representatives passed a constitutional amendment in 1969 for a national popular vote by a 338–70 margin. That amendment retained state control over elections.
The 1969 amendment was endorsed by Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, and various members of Congress who later ran for Vice President and President such as then-Congressman George H.W. Bush, then-Senator Bob Dole, and then-Senator Walter Mondale.
The American Bar Association also endorsed the proposed 1969 amendment.
The proposed 1969 constitutional amendment provided that the popular-vote count from each state would be added up to obtain the nationwide total for each candidate. The National Popular Vote compact does the same.
Under the current system, the electoral votes from all 50 states are co-mingled and simply added together, irrespective of the fact that the electoral-vote outcome from each state was affected by differences in state policies, including voter registration, ex-felon voting, hours of voting, amount and nature of advance voting, and voter identification requirements.
Federal law requires that each state certify its popular vote count to the federal government (section 6 of Title 3 of the United States Code).
Under both the current system and the National Popular Vote compact, all of the people of the United States are impacted by the different election policies of the states. Everyone in the United States is affected by the division of electoral votes generated by each state. The procedures governing presidential elections in a closely divided battleground state (e.g., Florida and Ohio) can affect, and indeed have affected, the ultimate outcome of national elections.
For example, the 2000 Certificate of Ascertainment (required by federal law) from the state of Florida reported 2,912,790 popular votes for George W. Bush and 2,912,253 popular vote for Al Gore, and also reported 25 electoral votes for George W. Bush and 0 electoral votes for Al Gore. That 25–0 division of the electoral votes from Florida determined the outcome of the national election just as a particular division of the popular vote from a particular state might decisively affect the national outcome in some future election under the National Popular Vote compact.
The 1969 constitutional amendment, endorsed by Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, and members of Congress who later ran for Vice President and President such as then-Congressman George H.W. Bush, then-Senator Bob Dole, and then-Senator Walter Mondale, and The American Bar Association and, more importantly, the current system also accepts the differences among states.
In Gallup polls since they started asking in 1944 until the 2016 election, only about 20% of the public supported the current system of awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states) (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided).
Support for a national popular vote for President has been strong among Republicans, Democrats, and Independent voters, as well as every demographic group in every state surveyed. In the 41 red, blue, and purple states surveyed, overall support has been in the 67-81% range - in rural states, in small states, in Southern and border states, in big states, and in other states polled.
There are several scenarios in which a candidate could win the presidency in 2020 with fewer popular votes than their opponents. It could reduce turnout more, as more voters realize their votes do not matter.
Most Americans don't ultimately care whether their presidential candidate wins or loses in their state or district. Voters want to know, that no matter where they live, even if they were on the losing side, their vote actually was equally counted and mattered to their candidate. Most Americans think it is wrong that the candidate with the most popular votes can lose. It undermines the legitimacy of the electoral system. We don't allow this in any other election in our representative republic.
On March 7, 2019, the Delaware Senate passed the National Popular Vote bill in a bi-partisan 14-7 vote
In 2018, the National Popular Vote bill in the Michigan Senate was sponsored by a bipartisan group of 25 of the 38 Michigan senators, including 15 Republicans and 10 Democrats.
The bill was approved in 2016 by a unanimous bipartisan House committee vote in both Georgia (16 electoral votes) and Missouri (10).
In 2016 the Arizona House of Representatives passed the bill 40-16-4.
Two-thirds of the Republicans and two-thirds of the Democrats in the Arizona House of Representatives sponsored the bill.
In January 2016, two-thirds of the Arizona Senate sponsored the bill.
In 2014, the Oklahoma Senate passed the bill by a 28–18 margin.
In 2009, the Arkansas House of Representatives passed the bill
Since 2006, the bill has passed 37 state legislative chambers in 23 rural, small, medium, large, Democratic, Republican and purple states with 261 electoral votes, including one house in Arizona (11), Arkansas (6), Maine (4), Michigan (16), Nevada (6), North Carolina (15), and Oklahoma (7), and both houses in Delaware (3), and New Mexico (5).
If my state was to do this I would sue since my state doesn't vote monolithically and this would therefore not have my vote counted if I was in the minority.
If states want to do this they need to apportion their votes to the national vote.
The National Popular Vote bill would give a voice to the minority party voters for president in each state. Now they don't matter to their candidate.
Post a Comment