Sunday, February 25, 2018

The Democrat Memo...

Let's be clear. The Democratic Memo was mostly a straight ahead strawman argument. It doesn't effectively defend, and doesn't even attempt to deny the main charges brought up by the original Republican memo on the subject. In stead it attempts to cleverly move the debate just slightly off kilter, attempting to debunk arguments that were never made by the original memo.

In fact, most of the relevant facts were simply echoed by the Democratic memo. The only difference appears to be that rather than be troubled by them, the Democrats seem more than willing to defend the same facts.

For instance, the fact that the FBI relied on the so called credibility of Richard Steele in their FICA application was a fact mentioned in both memos, but for different reasons. The Democrats basically parroted the argument of the FBI, that the dossier should be considered (even unverified) because they felt Steele was a trusted source. But the Republican never questioned Steele as a source. Rather they made the argument that Steele wasn't actually the source of the information as the warrant implies. The Republicans argued that Steele was simply a go between and was providing unverified information from paid Russian sources that were not (themselves) known to be trusted sources.

In other words, the Republicans questioned the reliability of the paid Russian sources. The Democrats countered with a defense of Richard Steele. This would be a classic strawman logical fallacy.

Another example of this same bit of information was the mention of the name George Papadopoulos in both memos. The Democrats state that the Steele dossier did not initiate the original counterintelligence operation by the FBI into the Trump campaign. They stated it as if it was a rebuttal of the Republican memo.  But the Republicans had also mentioned Papadopoulos in their memo as well as the reason a counterintelligence operation was initiated. They did however, argue that the dossier "fueled" the investigation moving forward.

In other words, the Republican claim that the unverified Steele dossier was used to fuel the FBI counterintelligence operation after it was initiated. The Democrats countered by demanding that the investigation was not initiated by the Steele dossier (something that was not in dispute). Again, another classic strawman logical fallacy.

The Democrats also state that the dossier was used "narrowly" in securing the warrant. This is an attempt to be clever by using a "semantic" argument that actually means one thing, while implying another. If you read the context of the term "narrowly" it suggests that a limited (or narrow) portion of the dossier was used in the FICA application. It does not actually argue (even though it implies) that the emphasis granted to this information was "narrow" in terms of the overall application.

The Republicans never made any claims that any portions of the dossier (other than the narrow subject associated with Carter Page) was used in the FICA warrant. So the Democrats making this argument are both using a strawman fallacy, while simultaneously using a semantic argument to imply something not actually stated.

There are several other examples of similar strawman arguments, where the original claims by the Republicans go untouched including:
  • The fact that the Judges in question were never informed that Richard Steele was paid by the DNC and the Clinton campaign. (apparently there was some information provided in the footnotes about the fact that Steele was being paid by someone with political interest - but to what degree a judge could assume is a matter of question)  
  • The fact that the Judges in question had been continuously made to believe that Yahoo news had "independent verification" of the information, when they knew that Steele himself had spoken to Yahoo (the Yahoo reporter admits that Steele was his source). 
  • The fact that the Steele dossier made up a significant portion of the justification for the FICA warrant was not addressed by any new facts suggesting otherwise.  
  • The fact that Deputy Director Andrew McCabe suggested that no warrant would have been sought without the Steele dossier was not seriously challenged as a matter of fact.
Bottom line is that there is really nothing new in the memo. It's basically a political argument that lacks any real new information. Even the articles I read from people who are fond of the Schiff memo are basically just happy with the tone, the argumentative nature, and the language used. Making a statement like "compelling evidence and probable cause to believe Page was knowingly assisting clandestine Russian intelligence activities in the U.S" doesn't really provide any actual "information" other than to let us know Adam Schiff's opinion. But it apparently is enough to satisfy those clinging to the notion that the FBI did everything by the books.  

I am still of the opinion that the Justice Department and Congress should simply declassify the application and the hearings on the subject. Then we can all judge for ourselves. 

130 comments:

commie said...

Certainly shoots a whole in Nunes' foot......Great read and another example why R leadershits like Nunes need to be replaced!!!!

Loretta said...

Good post, CH.

wphamilton said...

I would dispute three of your bullet points, and posit that your fourth is misdirection.

1. This was no mere footnote, nor left to assumption. The FBI stated plainly, in the section describing that evidence, that regarding the Steele report, the FBI speculates that the political organization intended it to discredit the Trump campaign. You cannot get more direct than that. It matters not one whit which campaign it was.

2. Diametrically opposite: the Yahoo News report was mentioned by the FBI to inform the Court of Page's public denial of his meetings in Moscow. Not as corroboration.

3. The Democratic memo contends that the Steele report was NOT so prominent in the FICA warrants, and documents why. Not the least reason given is surveillance of Page prior to the report.

4. McCabe’s testimony. We still don't know what his actual testimony was, nor the context. However, the inference that the Steele dossier was the principle source of intelligence for the warrant is strongly disputed. To illustrate, the Republican side, specifically Sens. Chuck Grassley and Lindsey Graham, are on record that the dossier made up "the bulk of" the FISA application. The rebuttal is that the FBI made only narrow use of specific information about Page's activities in 2016.

In summary, these are basically the Republican talking points that have been floating around for a few days. These talking points do not contest the factual statements made in the Democratic memo. I'm pretty sure that this isn't going Nune's way. The investigation has not been discredited and will continue unabated, but the Republican attack on the FBI will be seen as an unjustified political attack.

commie said...

WP.....

Shocking, Loretta really likes CH's post....my guess she has trouble reading, especially when it comes to the trump CH, BS filter she lacks...

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

wp shredded the esteemed host's posted distorted information based upon his ideology.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

The fact that the Steele dossier made up a significant portion of the justification for the FICA warrant was not addressed by any new facts suggesting otherwise.

The timing of the events prove your assumptions invalid.

wphamilton said...

As I mentioned, the four bullet points are the Republican talking points that are floating around. Probably most Republicans who want the Special Investigation to go away approve of those talking points.

We're not likely to convince them otherwise either; they will continue to rely on the same inferences that, frankly, we have refuted before this memo was published. A broader spectrum of citizens however will see the counterpoints as adequate to dispute the Nunes memo, which does now look like a misleading partisan attack.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

wp, I hope that you are correct on the public's attention to the accuracy of the dissection of the Nunes memo.

His irrational speech at CPAC and the impulsive tweets might have a negative effect on his approval rating. We will see this week .

james, smiling said...

'Political and legal BUST': White House comes out swinging against the Democratic rebuttal memo

President Donald Trump and the White House struck back at Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee after they released their rebuttal memo to the so-called Nunes memo.

Trump said the rebuttal was "a total political and legal BUST" and described actions by the Department of Justice that were "SO ILLEGAL."

He also suggested the FBI purposefully concealed facts about the Steele dossier's funding from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court while seeking a warrant to monitor former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page.

There is no evidence that the DOJ or the FBI did anything illegal. Material evidence contained in the Democratic memo also indicates that the DOJ acted according to protocol by informing the court that the dossier was funded by a political entity.

james, laughing said...

Many More ‘Strongly Disapprove’ of Trump

A new USA Today survey finds just 38% of Americans now approve of the job President Trump is doing as president while 60% disapprove.

“What’s more, the intensity of feeling is hardening against the president. Now, the percentage who ‘strongly disapprove’ of him is more than double the percentage who ‘strongly approve,’ 39% compared with 16%.”
_____________
You can get away with lying to some of the people all of the time, and to all of the people some of the time, but you can't get away with lying to all of the people all of the time.

This makes me so mad I want to go out and grab some woman by the ... Trump said...

Trump Approval Slides Again

A new CNN/SSRS poll finds President Trump’s approval at 35%, down five points over the last month to match his lowest level yet.

“The slide follows a January bump in approval for the President, a finding that appeared connected to a bullish stock market and strong reviews for the economy. His new rating matches a December poll, which marked his lowest approval rating in CNN polling since taking office in January 2017.”

Myballs said...

Off topic...

I just played my first game of Lasertron. Lots of fun and surprisingly good exercise. I would definitely do it again.

Anonymous said...

The only saviors of the Republic are Democrats.

Clearly.

#neveragain.

Anonymous said...

Vote only for Gill Stien types , so pristine, pure and the light to change.

Anonymous said...

Way cool MyBalls

Teresa Dulyea-Parker said...

James Boswell of Normal is a pedophile.

Anonymous said...

Which liberals have post a yard sign ...


"GUN FREE HOME"..

Anonymous said...

. Diametrically opposite: the Yahoo News report was mentioned by the FBI to inform the Court of Page's public denial of his meetings in Moscow. Not as corroboration.

the isikoff yahoo news piece was first fed to isikoff, then referenced by the FBI to corroborate their activity..
it was a total lie.
this has been well reported and you should know this.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

CPAC Speaker Needed Security Escort After Flagging Trump’s Sexual Misconduct

Anonymous said...

Roger Amick said...

wp shredded the esteemed host's posted distorted information based upon his ideology.



alky, i think it's so cute when you attempt to fellate wp, but i think he's spoken for.

Anonymous said...




nice try, alky:

“They were acting as if I were in real danger,” she texted me afterward, “which I didn’t feel at all.”

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/02/cpac-speaker-needed-security-escort-after-criticizing-trump.html


it was obviously a precaution, and an unnecessary one at that.

Anonymous said...



btw alky, you know who truly needed a security detail after speaking at an event?

dana loesch after the cnn ambush.

dana was really in danger. mona? not so much.

you fucking drama queen fraud.


Anonymous said...

Blogger KD said...
Which liberals have post a yard sign ...


"GUN FREE HOME"..
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


a few years ago the project veritas kid visited some prominent anti-gun liberals and offered them gun free zone yard signs to post in front of their homes. it was an exercise in classic liberal hypocrisy.

https://www.projectveritas.com/2013/01/15/project-veritas-journalists-politicians-refuse-to-post-lawn-sign-saying-home-is-proudly-gun-free/

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

ISIS killed 24,000 people in areas under their control (1st link) plus 2,043 in terror attacks abroad (second link) for a total of 26,000. Let's round that up to 30,000 to allow for the possibility of an undercount (since some of the numbers in areas controlled by ISIS are estimates.) This is since 2014.

There are also an average of about 33,000 gun deaths in the U.S. each year (third link.) Two thirds of those are suicides. Even if we assume that people who want to commit suicide will find a way to do it otherwise (not entirely true, as suicides by causes like slitting your wrists or overdose can sometimes be reversed if caught in time while if you blow your brains out there is little a first responder can do, but to save the argument, let's omit the suicides.) That leaves 11,000 gun deaths attributable to homicide (mass shootings or otherwise) and accidents (most of which involve children who 'find' a gun.)

That means in the same four year time period gun violence (excluding suicide) has killed over 40,000 people, in the United States-- more than ISIS has killed in the whole world. So numerically you are spot on.

Keep in mind I'm fully a believer in your right to own a weapon, but some of the crazy stuff the NRA pushes (like AZ house bill 2535 this year, which would prohibit the Department of Child Services from talking to people about locking up their guns when placing a foster child in a home,) even though they can (and do) go on at length about the need to lock up the bleach, the medicine and the swimming pool is just ridiculous. It's like they WANT foster kids to find guns and shoot themselves or others, because the NRA is so deadset against even allowing doctors or anybody else from even discussing gun safety with people.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/un-report-on-isis-24000-killed-injured-by-islamic-state-children-used-as-soldiers-women-sold-as-sex-slaves-127761/

https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/17/world/mapping-isis-attacks-around-the-world/index.html

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/05/us-gun-violence-charts-data

Anonymous said...




nice copy/paste, alky. no wonder you have to wave your pom poms for wp "shredding" (yeah, right) CH. you sure as fuck can't do it.

C.H. Truth said...

You cannot get more direct than that. It matters not one whit which campaign it was.

Sure you can. You can say it was funded by the DNC and Clinton campaign.

McCabe’s testimony. We still don't know what his actual testimony was, nor the context.

What we know is that the Republican memo claims McCabe said they wouldn't have sought a warrant without the dossier... and a Democratic memo that does not claim otherwise.

The investigation has not been discredited

Well not to you. But to almost everyone else, they will admit that it has been politicized. Even the indictments of 13 Russians with no mention of any Americans was taken by people like you as an indictment of Trump associates (in spite of an actual denial by the Asst A.G. that it did).

So, WP... perhaps you can understand it this way.

To the degree that the Nunes memo did not move your opinion...
The Schiff memo did even less to move mine.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

The Nunes memo’s core allegation is that the FBI and Department of Justice misled at least one federal judge on a Foreign Surveillance Intelligence Act (FISA) court during the Trump-Russia investigation.


In October 2016, the FBI requested a FISA warrant to spy on former Trump campaign aide Carter Page. FBI and DOJ officials argued that Page had troubling connections to the Kremlin, and wanted to check him out as part of their overall investigation into the Trump campaign’s ties to Russia.

An “essential part” of the application, Nunes argues, came from the so-called Steele dossier — the document containing major allegations of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia that was put together by former British spy Christopher Steele (it’s also the source of the “pee tape” rumors). The problem, Nunes argues, is that Steele’s research was partially funded by Democrats — but the FBI purposely neglected to tell the court about that source of funding.

In essence, Nunes alleges that the FBI used opposition research put together by a Democratic political operative to go after the Trump campaign without disclosing that clear conflict of interest to the court. This was, according to Nunes, “a troubling breakdown of legal processes established to protect the American people from abuses related to the FISA process.”


The Schiff memo argues that this isn’t true. And it has the receipts to prove it.

Anonymous said...




nice lie, alky.

here's the relevant text of AZ HB 2535:

I. NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER LAW, THE DEPARTMENT, THE DIRECTOR, A CHILD WELFARE AGENCY OR A GOVERNING BOARD OF A CHILD WELFARE AGENCY MAY NOT ADOPT, IMPLEMENT OR ENFORCE A RULE OR POLICY THAT RELATES TO THE POSSESSION, TRANSFER OR STORAGE OF A FIREARM.

Anonymous said...

The Schiff memo argues that this isn’t true. And it has the receipts to prove it.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

he has "receipts" alky?

for what? to submit on an expense report?

ok, fine. if he has them, let's SEE THEM.

i think you're full of schiff.

Anonymous said...




LOL. the juice box mafia, alky?


https://www.vox.com/world/2018/2/24/17048936/democrat-rebuttal-nunes-schiff-memo


Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Our foaming Alky is like a
Stupid Large Mouth Bass, getting hook on any lure.

Anonymous said...

because the NRA is so deadset against even allowing doctors or anybody else from even discussing gun safety with people.


absolutely false.

the NRA wrote the fucking book on gun safety. they're more than happy for qualified individuals to discuss gun safety with gun owners, and they encourage and advocate for new gun owners to seek out an accredited safety course and get themselves trained.

what the NRA does not endorse is some chuckleheaded fuckstick with absolutely no experience with guns to counsel others on the topic.

if my doctor wants to discuss my gun ownership with me we can do it at the range as i watch him fire the guns HE owns.

Anonymous said...

Zack writes about all of the things that are not American things. He previously edited a section on political thought at ThinkProgress and, before that, contributed to The Dish. It's pronounced BEE-chum.

Anonymous said...

Liberals. Just stop. No one is not allowing your say. In fact we encourage it ever louder go with more Hashtags and ribbons.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

None of you discuss or try to prove that I'm wrong.


KDFebruary 25, 2018 at 1:16 PM
Our foaming Alky is like a
Stupid Large Mouth Bass, getting hook on any lure.

. the juice box mafia, alky?

Etc

C.H. Truth said...

Roger...

There are no receipts. That doesn't even make sense. The fact that you believe that or repeat that, just goes to show how massively gullible you are.

Bottom line (and even your own statement reflects this):

The Nunes memo provided previously unreleased information that alleged that the FBI acted in bad faith in misusing opposition research to further and investigation and spy on Americans.

The Schiff memo provides no new information at all... and basically just declares that the FBI didn't do anything wrong as a matter of opinion.

Anonymous said...

Here is an oldie but a goodie. Sure nothing was actually done, but it felt good.

#bringbackourgirls

MoochElle's bs.

C.H. Truth said...

WP - at the end of the day:

39 percent of voters say the investigation into Russia’s influence has been handled “very” or “somewhat” fairly. But 35 percent say it hasn’t been handled fairly — either “not too fairly” or “not fairly at all." More than a quarter of voters, 26 percent, have no opinion.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/07/poll-nunes-memo-mueller-russia-probe-395961

This is not what you would call a highly credible investigation when less than four in ten believe it has been handled fairly. The Schiff memo did nothing to secure any new found credibility.;

Anonymous said...

HB, give us your strongest evidence.

K?

Anonymous said...

I really want more posts from "thinkProgressive" and a teen show called "The Dish".

Please

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

BREAKING: United Airlines has just announced that they have notified the NRA that they will no longer offer a discounted rate to their annual meeting.

They have also just asked the NRA to remove their information from the NRA website.

RETWEET to show your support @united

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Read it yourself. I got the comment from the memo

You spouted the party bs

Loretta said...

Big deal.

Loretta said...

"None of you discuss or try to prove that I'm wrong."

CH handles you daily.

Anonymous said...

BREAKING:"

Lol 48 hrs old news,get off the teen girls channels.

Anonymous said...

Free Market Forces is "breaking News" to some.

After the late years, it just might be.

COMMIE said...

Loser loretta posits....


CH handles you daily.


BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!

SURE, LOSER...

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

This takes most of your assumptions well, out of the realm of truth.

The Russia case began in July 2016 when the FBI received information about George Papadopoulos, who had served as a foreign policy advisor on the Trump campaign. He had reportedly claimed Moscow had dirt on Clinton, including stolen emails, and he pleaded guilty last year to lying to federal agents about his conversations with Russians.

Three months later, after submitting a lengthy classified application to a special surveillance court, the FBI and Justice Department were granted a Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act warrant to conduct eavesdropping on Page starting on Oct. 21, 2016.

The approval signified that the court agreed there was probable cause to believe Page could be a Russian agent.

Given his long term contacts with the Russians including their intelligence sources.

The initial 90-day warrant was renewed three times by three different judges, each time after new applications were reviewed and signed by top leaders at the FBI and Justice Department.

That is not a crime, nor is it proof of FBI collusion with the Clinton campaign that you so ridiculously believe happened.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

One more time, to see if it sinks in.

Devin Nunes (R-CA), the document attempted to argue that the investigation into the Trump campaign was fueled by political bias in 2016, because the surveillance warrant sought by the Obama administration’s FBI was based on opposition research in a dossier compiled by a former British intelligence officer on the payroll of Hillary Clinton. The infamous dossier. Well, as usual the truth is different than the not so cold hearted truth..

The Russia case began in July 2016 when the FBI received information about George Papadopoulos, who had served as a foreign policy advisor on the Trump campaign. He had reportedly claimed Moscow had dirt on Clinton, including stolen emails, and he pleaded guilty last year to lying to federal agents about his conversations with Russians.


The fact that the FICA warrants were issued starting on Oct. 21, 2016.

wphamilton said...

It strikes me that the investigation into Russia's interference "has been handled fairly" or "not fairly" is far more general than a question of its credibility.

For example, many respondents could (and likely do) think it is "unfair" that Trump is investigated but Clinton is not. They could believe that and still believe that it is a credible and objective investigation into Trump.

Or one might well feel it is "unfair" that Trump associates have been indicted for lying to the FBI, while Clinton associates (and Clinton herself) were given a free pass. Again, that doesn't diminish the credibility of the investigation into Trump.

So your cited poll does not support the conclusion that you present, nor disrupt my prognostication that the Nunes memo will now be seen as partisan and misleading. Which of course it is.

9 percent of voters say the investigation into Russia’s influence has been handled “very” or “somewhat” fairly. But 35 percent say it hasn’t been handled fairly — either “not too fairly” or “not fairly at all." More than a quarter of voters, 26 percent, have no opinion.

This is not what you would call a highly credible investigation

wphamilton said...

The last line is CH's quoted text - I wouldn't want anyone to think that I advocated such a position.

James said Max Boot said...

No Longer a Conservative

Max Boot: “In the past I would have been indignant at such attacks and eager to assert my conservative credentials. I spent years writing for conservative publications such as the Wall Street Journal editorial page and Commentary magazine and working as a foreign policy adviser for three Republican presidential campaigns. Being conservative used to be central to my identity. But now, frankly, I don’t give a damn. I prefer to think of myself as a classical liberal, because ‘conservative’ has become practically synonymous with ‘Trump lackey.'

“If this is what mainstream conservatism has become — and it is — count me out.”

C.H. Truth said...

Devin Nunes (R-CA), the document attempted to argue that the investigation into the Trump campaign was fueled by political bias in 2016, because the surveillance warrant sought by the Obama administration’s FBI was based on opposition research in a dossier compiled by a former British intelligence officer on the payroll of Hillary Clinton. The infamous dossier. Well, as usual the truth is different than the not so cold hearted truth..

The Russia case began in July 2016 when the FBI received information about George Papadopoulos, who had served as a foreign policy advisor on the Trump campaign. He had reportedly claimed Moscow had dirt on Clinton, including stolen emails, and he pleaded guilty last year to lying to federal agents about his conversations with Russians.


Hey Roger... you &^%@ing idiot!!!

READ MY FUCKING POST!!!!

This is addressed. Either you don't bother to read anything, or you are just too stupid to get it?

Which is it Roger? Don't pay attention? Too dumb to get it?

Got to be one or the other.


The Nunes memo didn't suggest that the investigation was initiated by the dossier. The first memo stated the EXACT SAME THING about the timing of the initiation of the probe. The Nunes memo suggested that Peter Strzok initiated the probe because of George Papadopoulos.;

You get that so far Roger?

Are you able to follow that.

Or is that still too complicated for your brain?



There is no disagreement to what "initiated" the investigation?


The Nunes memo stated that it was the dossier that "fueled" the investigation... which is to say that majority of what the FBI was investigating came directly from the dossier.


Do you still not understand?

Or does this make any sense to you?


Do you understand that the Schiff memo is designed to fool you into thinking that the Nunes memo claimed something that it didn't?

Do you understand that you were stupid enough to fall for it.

Do you understand any of this, or is it over your head?

C.H. Truth said...

James

Max Boot is a Russian who was born in Moscow.

He doesn't like Trump.

Go figure?

C.H. Truth said...

WP...

If people don't believe that an investigation is being conducted fairly, then they don't see it as credible. Part of being credible involves being fair.

The idea of someone who is "credible" is that you believe them. That you see them as a professional who should be trusted.

If you view someone as not being "fair" (whether it is directly from their own actions or actions that reflect on them or their authority) - then you obviously don't have trust in them.

Credibility requires trust.

wphamilton said...

Not necessarily CH. Two of the reasons why, I've already gone into. Fair and Credible are two different things, perhaps with non-null intersections but not the same concepts.

You know the problems with inferences from poll responses. Especially when the question is so vague as "handled fairly", we cannot project from those answers into opinions which we think should be related. It is, both mathematically and logically, invalid.

Probably, almost the entirety of that minority responding that they felt it isn't being "handled fairly" are concerned with the Clinton investigation, or are core Trump partisans, or both. As I had already mentioned to Roger (in the post which you're arguing against), I doubt that those people will ever be convinced. It is everyone *other* than those people who I am sure will continue to see the investigation as credible, and the Nunes memo as a deceptive partisan attack.

Anonymous said...

Hb,jane,wp,opie, indy, now that you have more money because of the Trump tax cut, what cha doing with it?

Anonymous said...


hey alky, you parked your cowardly copy/paste response to CH on the wrong thread.

here, let me help you out:


Blogger Roger Amick said...
But the Republicans had also mentioned Papadopoulos in their memo as well as the reason a counterintelligence operation was initiated. They did however, argue that the dossier "fueled" the investigation moving forward.

In other words, the Republican claim that the unverified Steele dossier was used to fuel the FBI counterintelligence operation after it was initiated. The Democrats countered by demanding that the investigation was not initiated by the Steele dossier (something that was not in dispute). Again, another classic strawman logical fallacy.

Your straw man is a logical fallacy by your own making. You are claiming, despite the evidence and the timeline, an (assumptions). The dossier, that didn't enter into the investigation until September. Papadopoulos was the motivation for the investigation. It triggered the investigation in July..

The Democrats and the FBI were not colluding with each other, but in your "mind",oh yes they are!

February 26, 2018 at 1:13 AM



Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Donald Trump’s approval rating has slumped again to match the lowest of his presidency, according to two new polls.

The surveys were conducted amid mounting activism for gun control and security clearance problems in the White House. Support for stricter gun laws has spiked to the highest level since 1993 and Americans aren’t happy with Trump’s position on the issue, CNN has found.

Despite Trump’s bullish take on his performance, the president’s approval rating fell five points over last month to 35 percent, according to a CNN survey, conducted by polling firm SSRS. That number matches the lowest rating of his presidency in December.

A separate poll by USA Today and Suffolk University’s Political Research Center found similar results, with the president’s approval rating also slipping to match the lowest point that survey has found at 38 percent, with 60 percent disapproving of the job he’s doing.

Gun control looks to be a particular problem for the president.

The CNN poll was conducted Feb. 20 to 23 amid outrage over guns in the wake of the Parkland school shooting that killed 17 people. Only a third of those polled approve of how Trump is handling gun control policy, with 54 percent disapproving, the CNN poll found. Just over 12 percent of those surveyed said they have yet to make up their mind on the issue.


https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-apos-approval-rating-plunges-021528999.html

commie said...

Roger...once again CH goes flaccid after his premature ejaculation last week concerning all the polls going against the D's,,,,How quickly trump and his stupidity at CPAC can go against him...Most amusing was the lynch mob attacking that female conservative writer when she criticized the way trump and his party treat women....Toss in the steele comment that he was elected because of his race to be RNC chair and you can certainly conclude the whole party had a real bad weekend!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Blogger Roger Amick said...

Donald Trump’s approval rating has slumped again to match the lowest of his presidency, according to two new polls.



that's nice, alky. and a CNN poll to boot. wow. now that just makes all the difference in the world now, doesn't it?


Only a third of those polled approve of how Trump is handling gun control policy, with 54 percent disapproving, the CNN poll


only 54% disapproving? seems low considering all the effort they put into their rabid anti-gun town hall extravaganza.



Anonymous said...



hey alky,

i am curious about something -

CH asked you a series of specific questions related to the schiff memo and you replied with a copy/paste of a cnn trump approval poll.

i'm having a hard time seeing how your copy/paste adequately responds to CH's questions.

please clarify.

thanks in advance alky.


commie said...

Rat the hole once again does what he does best....being an asshole with nothing but ad hominem against a poll showing the latest trump tank....

alky. and a CNN poll to boot.

Yep....that will be the first of many, except rassmussen.....LOLOLOL

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Who is the f@$g idiot.


But the Republicans had also mentioned Papadopoulos in their memo as well as the reason a counterintelligence operation was initiated. They did however, argue that the dossier "fueled" the investigation moving forward.


Hey Roger... you &^%@ing idiot!!!

READ MY FUCKING POST!!!!

This is addressed. Either you don't bother to read anything, or you are just too stupid to get it?

Which is it Roger? Don't pay attention? Too dumb to get it?

Got to be one or the other.


The Nunes memo didn't suggest that the investigation was initiated by the dossier. The first memo stated the EXACT SAME THING about the timing of the initiation of the probe. The Nunes memo suggested that Peter Strzok initiated the probe because of George Papadopoulos.;

You get that so far Scott?

Are you able to follow that.

You should have read what I said.


Blogger Roger Amick said...
But the Republicans had also mentioned Papadopoulos in their memo as well as the reason a counterintelligence operation was initiated. They did however, argue that the dossier "fueled" the investigation moving forward.

In other words, the Republican claim that the unverified Steele dossier was used to fuel the FBI counterintelligence operation after it was initiated. The Democrats countered by demanding that the investigation was not initiated by the Steele dossier (something that was not in dispute). Again, another classic strawman logical fallacy.

Your straw man is a logical fallacy by your own making. You are claiming, despite the evidence and the timeline, an (assumptions). The dossier, that didn't enter into the investigation until September. Papadopoulos was the motivation for the investigation. It triggered the investigation in July..

The Democrats and the FBI were not colluding with each other, but in your "mind",oh yes they are!



The fact that the Judges in question were never informed that Richard Steele was paid by the DNC and the Clinton campaign. (apparently there was some information provided in the footnotes about the fact that Steele was being paid by someone with political interest - but to what degree a judge could assume is a matter of question)

Read your own post.

You are spouting talking points by the President and his brown shirts.

Anonymous said...



andy mccarthy does a good job of working through schiff's lies:


Democrats implausibly insist that what “launched” the FBI’s counterintelligence investigation was not Steele’s allegations but intelligence from Australia about George Papadopoulos’s contact with what Democrats elusively describe as “individuals linked to Russia.” As we learned when Papadopoulos pled guilty, though, it is anything but clear that these “individuals linked to Russia” had much in the way of links to Putin’s regime: London-based academic Joseph Misfud, who is from Malta and apparently does not speak Russian; an unidentified woman who falsely pretended to be Putin’s niece; and Ivan Timofeev, a program director at a Russian-government-funded think tank.

Even if we assume for argument’s sake that these characters had solid regime connections — rather than that they were boasting to impress the credulous young Papadopoulos — they were patently not in the same league as Sechin, a Putin crony, and Divyekin, a highly placed regime official. And that, manifestly, is how the FBI and the DOJ saw the matter: They sought a FISA warrant on Page, not Papadopoulos. And, as the above-excerpted passage shows, they highlighted the Steele dossier’s sensational allegations about Page and then feebly tried to corroborate those allegations with some Papadopoulos information, not the other way around.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/schiff-memo-russia-investigation-harms-democrats-more-than-helps-them/

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Approve Disapprove
RCP Average 2/9 - 2/24 -- 41.5 54.5 -13.0
USA Today/Suffolk 2/20 - 2/24 1000 RV 38 60 -22
CNN 2/20 - 2/23 RV 39 56 -17
Rasmussen Reports 2/20 - 2/22 1500 LV 50 49 +1


commie said...


The fact that the Judges in question

Were appointed by R's,,,,,Oh well, another inconvenient fact which will be ignored by the nonthinking rat hole....

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Fake News Presidential polls.


Donald Trump’s approval rating has slumped again to match the lowest of his presidency, according to two new polls.

The surveys were conducted amid mounting activism for gun control and security clearance problems in the White House. Support for stricter gun laws has spiked to the highest level since 1993 and Americans aren’t happy with Trump’s position on the


Despite Trump’s bullish take on his performance, the president’s approval rating fell five points over last month to 35 percent, according to a CNN survey, conducted by polling firm SSRS. That number matches the lowest rating of his presidency in December.

A separate poll by USA Today and Suffolk University’s Political Research Center found similar results, with the president’s approval rating also slipping to match the lowest point that survey has found at 38 percent, with 60 percent disapproving of the job he’s doing.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-approval-rating-at-lowest-again-in-two-polls_us_5a933b93e4b01e9e56bcfcad

Loretta said...

Big deal.

Anonymous said...



cnn and huff po, alky?

where's mommy jones, tpm and queen andrew?

James said...

On the next thread down I just posted the remarks of Emma Gonzales at a rally in Florida.

Anonymous said...

So what? Jane

James said...

Read it and see.

Teresa Dulyea-Parker said...

James Boswell of Normal is a pedophile.

Anonymous said...

US Economic Leading g Indicators Soar.

As tax cuts start filling the wallets and purse of regular Americans. Democrats called your tax cuts "CRUMBS".

Anonymous said...

I did jane, you need to grow up. Put the comic section down.

What are doing with your tax cut money?

C.H. Truth said...

You get that so far Scott? Are you able to follow that.

Actually Roger, I have no clue what you are arguing.


Are you disputing or not disputing that the dossier "fueled" the Russian probe... which was the statement that the Nunes memo made.

or

Are you disputing or not disputing that the dossier "initiated" the Russian probe... which isn't actually anything anyone claimed.

or

Are you still unable to distinguish between the term "initiate" (which means to start something) and "fuel" (e.g. add fuel to a fire) ???


Because at this point, Roger... you just seem to be writing incoherently and without any general purpose, and I don't think you can blame this on "voice to text" problems.

Anonymous said...

I did jane, you need to grow up. Put the comic section down.

What are doing with your tax cut money?

Anonymous said...

US Economic Leading g Indicators Soar.

As tax cuts start filling the wallets and purse of regular Americans. Democrats called your tax cuts "CRUMBS".

James said...

Cowardly Loretta and cowardly KD can falsely use other people's assumed names to call me a pedophile all they want (which everyone knows I am not), but that does not answer what Emma Gonzales said and what I hope the youth of our land keep saying.
--the Rev. James Boswell

Anonymous said...



and I don't think you can blame this on "voice to text" problems.

unless of course he really is talking out of his ass. and his tablet speaks english but not asshole.

James said...

Emma Gonzales has spoken good English.

commie said...

the sterile heifer loser again tries to change the subject with...

US Economic Leading g Indicators Soar.

And trump soars into the depths of stupidity and sinking polls, like you asshole....

Teresa Dulyea-Parker said...

James Boswell of Normal is a pedophile.

commie said...

rat hole proudly attacks the left with more ad hominem, as he embraces the rants of


Hannity, Michelle Malkin, national review and every other source of inanity he can find.....LOLOLOL

Commonsense said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Jane, I call you a fucking scum low life to your face, get off the little boys, chicken hawk

Anonymous said...

It is the Economy Stupid."

US Economic Leading Indicators Soar.

As Democrats try to find a way not to own the Dispicable "CRUMBS" statement.


Do tell, hb, jane , wp, opie and others, what are you doing with your tax cuts?

commie said...

what are you doing with your tax cuts?

Buying a six pack of sam adams with my crumbs .....LOL at your idiotic question....keep proving you swallow trumps sperm....

Commonsense said...

Emma Gonzales has spoken good English.

Just curious James what makes you think she wouldn't.

Commonsense said...

Speaking of Emma, she's got new fans.

NRA-basher Emma Gonzalez (Whose Father Fled Castro's Gun-outlawing Cuba) Celebrated as Hero by Cuba's Media

Of course the Castro Regime wasn't for gun control when they were guerillas hanging out in the Santa Clara mountains.
But they're enthusiastic supports now banning any private possession of guns.

commie said...

Menstral our cramp thinks town hall attacking a HS junior of 17 years old is making points with independent voters and women....Dayum you are stupid posted...

NRA-basher Emma Gonzalez (Whose Father Fled Castro's Gun-outlawing Cuba) Celebrated as Hero by

Our chicken shit cramps who was never shot at in his life attacks someone who lost 17 classmates and teachers while he bravely posts another stupid opinion from the losing R,......idiot

Commonsense said...

Just pointing out the fact Dennis. Gun Control is a favorite position of brutal dictatorships.

C.H. Truth said...

Buying a six pack of sam adams with my crumbs

Hmmm... since it was the equivalent to about a 3% raise...

Only being able to purchase a six pack of beer with your savings, suggests you work part time at Burger King.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

WASHINGTON, Feb 26 (Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday dealt a setback to President Donald Trump, requiring his administration to maintain protections he has sought to end for hundreds of thousands of immigrants brought illegally into the United States as children.

The justices refused to hear the administration's appeal of a federal judge's Jan. 9 injunction that halted Trump's move to end a program that benefits immigrants known as "Dreamers" implemented in 2012 by his Democratic predecessor, Barack Obama. Under Trump's action, the protections were due to start phasing out beginning in March.

In a brief order, the justices did not explain their reasoning, as usual, but said the appeal was "denied without prejudice," indicating they will maintain an open mind on the underlying legal issue still being considered in by lower court. The court also said it expects that appeals court to "proceed expeditiously to decide this case."

Under the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program, roughly 700,000 young adult, mostly Hispanics, are granted protect from deportation and given work permits for two-year periods, after which they must re-apply. A total of about 1.8 million people are eligible for the program, a sizable fraction of the more than 11 million immigrants living in the United States illegally.


Trump's administration had appealed a Jan. 9 nationwide injunction by San Francisco-based U.S. District Judge William Alsup, who ruled that the DACA program must remain in place while the litigation is resolved.

Congress so far has failed in an effort pass legislation to address the fate of the "Dreamers," including a potential path to citizenship.

C.H. Truth said...

Roger.... oblivious to any other issue at hand, continues with his mindless cut and pasting.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Your inability to comprehend what I am thinking and saying is your problem not mine..

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

It was bad news for your President .

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I already have said, that your inability to comprehend what I am thinking and saying is your problem not mine.

Commonsense said...

That's is the first sign of madness.

:-) James, smiling, said...


That was far from mindless c & p. It was breaking news.

And this is worth repeating here, James said...

IMPORTANT BREAKING NEWS

U.S. Supreme Court rejects Trump over 'Dreamers' immigrants

Reuters
51 mins ago

The U.S. Supreme Court today dealt a setback to President Donald Trump, requiring his administration to maintain protections he has sought to end for hundreds of thousands of immigrants brought illegally into the United States as children.

The justices refused to hear the administration's appeal of a federal judge's Jan. 9 injunction that halted Trump's move to end a program that benefits immigrants known as "Dreamers" implemented in 2012 by his Democratic predecessor, Barack Obama. Under Trump's action, the protections were due to start phasing out beginning in March.
____________________

In scripture the people of ancient Israel were told that they were not to mistreat the sojourner/the resident alien/the foreigner among them.

They were even told that they were to "love" the foreigner among them and treat him or her as if they were one of their own.
--the Rev. James Boswell

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

You are clinging to the belief that the FBI and DOJ were motivated to pursue the Russian intervention and possible collusion or obstruction of justice, was based upon political reasons, not to find out how the Russians actions effected the election and the possible involvement by the Trump campaign.

C.H. Truth said...

James - you realize that all the USSC did was refuse to bypass the appeals court challenges. They didn't make any ruling on the merits of the case.

From the article:

The court's denial was expected, because the justices rarely accept appeals asking them to bypass the lower courts.

In fact, nearly nobody believes that there is any merit to the case, which is why Congress has been negotiating regarding the Dreamers as if there really isn't a pending case. Almost every legal expert on both sides expects that the Courts will eventually side with the Administration on this.

The news is basically irrelevant at this point in time.

But thanks for cutting and pasting it a "SECOND TIME" as if it matters.


I have to ask both James and Roger...

Did you really read the story and understand what it meant?

C.H. Truth said...

Roger...

Are you planning on answering the questions I asked you, or just continue to change the subject, cut and paste irrelevant stories, and pull more stupid generic statements out of your ass?

Commonsense said...

You are clinging to the belief that the FBI and DOJ were motivated to pursue the Russian intervention and possible collusion or obstruction of justice, was based upon political reasons,

"First we'll fuck Flynn then we fuck Trump"
Andrew McCabe Assit Director of the FBI


Can't imagine why anyone would cling to that belief.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Scott, you pull your opinions out of Trump's ass. You believe that FBI and DOJ were and remain biased against the President.

Your entire string of posts, cling to that belief.

You have now joined the polluted swamp of insults R Us.

Your conservative beliefs as a “conservative” have become practically synonymous with “Trump lackey.”

Loretta said...

"Roger.... oblivious to any other issue at hand, continues with his mindless cut and pasting."

He's incapable. A mindless troll.

He couldn't even keep the trash blog going.

Anonymous said...

Blogger Roger Amick said...

Scott, you pull your opinions out of Trump's ass.



regardless of the source of CH's opinions, you have done absolutely nothing to refute them. all you have are nickledick insults.

step up and write a coherent rebuttal, mr. 137 IQ.

commie said...

CH the mindless makes up more fake equivalencies to prove what? He's lost his mind!!!!

Hmmm... since it was the equivalent to about a 3% raise...

Hmm, the latest example of CH autofellate to feel better about our tsarist Potus....LOLOLOL




Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Scott, as I got into politics and yes, I leaned towards the left. But then I started watching a PBS television debate program hosted by William F Buckley Jr. He hosted the liberals of the day and disgusted a wide range of issues. He had almost single handedly dismissed The John Birch Society out of the Republican party. I voted for George H.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan in 1980. I occasionally also voted for Republicans in other contests.

That party of conservatives has been corrupted by the President you endorse on a daily basis. Yeah, more C/P. But from The National Review piece paints a picture of the conservative movement in the Trump era. Read the whole thing. No, I'm not insane. 😎

https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2018/02/17/william-f-buckley-trump-conservatism-needs-rebuilding/


By RICHARD BROOKHISER
February 16, 2018 4:31 PM.

That is Trump’s business, and America’s. But what has Trump done to conservatives?

One of Trump’s abilities, which he possesses at the level of genius, is finding and naming the weaknesses of enemies: Low-Energy Jeb, Little Marco, Crooked Hillary. Related is his ability to create weaknesses in his supporters. A weak man needs weak supporters; strong ones might make him feel insecure, or differ with him. And so, whether from design, or simply because it is the way things work, Trump’s conservative admirers have had to abandon and contradict what they once professed to hold most dear.

The most egregious example is the religious Right. The religious Right is the latest version of an old model of American politics, variously incarnated by Puritans, abolitionists, and William Jennings Bryan. It, like its predecessors, has argued that America and individual Americans need to have a godly or at least moral character to thrive. Now the religious Right adores a thrice-married cad and casual liar. But it is not alone. Historians and psychologists of the martial virtues salute the bone-spurred draft-dodger whose Khe Sanh was not catching the clap. Cultural critics who deplored academic fads and slipshod aesthetics explicate a man who has never read a book, not even the ones he has signed. Followers of Harry Jaffa, the most important Lincoln scholar of the last 60 years, rally round a Republican who does not know why the Civil War happened. Straussians, after leaving the cave, find themselves in Mar-a-Lago. Econocons put their money on a serial bankrupt.

Admiring Trump is different from voting for him, or working with him. Politics is calculation; “to live,” Whittaker Chambers told Buckley, who quoted it ever after, “is to maneuver.” But to admire Trump is to trade your principles for his, which are that winning — which means Trump winning — is all.

In three years (maybe seven), Donald Trump will no longer be president. But conservatives who bent the knee will still be writing and thinking. How will it be possible to take them seriously?

The short answer is, it won’t. But that is not an answer that Bill would give. Minds change, hearts change. That’s why he spent so much time arguing, with foes and friends alike. It will take a lot of arguing to rebuild a conservative movement that one can contemplate without scorn.


commie said...

Loretta the loser opines....



He couldn't even keep the trash blog going.


The same way you keep your marine ?????

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

The trash blog is polluted by a picture of rrb at the beach.

Anonymous said...




yet another alky copy/paste authored by:

By RICHARD BROOKHISER
February 16, 2018 4:31 PM.




Anonymous said...


Admiring Trump is different from voting for him, or working with him.


the ultimate irony here alky is that it's YOU who cannot tell the difference between admiring trump, voting for trump, or accepting the fact that trump is our president and therefore deciding to work with trump to advance the best interests of the nation.

you're such a fucking fraud. no wonder you need a perpetual copy/paste crutch. without it you'd have nothing to say.


Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

What I said that escaped the racist rodent bastard .

Roger AmickFebruary 26, 2018 at 10:31 AM
Scott, as I got into politics and yes, I leaned towards the left. But then I started watching a PBS television debate program hosted by William F Buckley Jr. He hosted the liberals of the day and disgusted a wide range of issues. He had almost single handedly dismissed The John Birch Society out of the Republican party. I voted for George H.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan in 1980. I occasionally also voted for Republicans in other contests.

That party of conservatives has been corrupted by the President you endorse on a daily basis. Yeah, more C/P. But from The National Review piece paints a picture of the conservative movement in the Trump era. Read the whole thing.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Roger Amick said...
But the Republicans had also mentioned Papadopoulos in their memo as well as the reason a counterintelligence operation was initiated. They did however, argue that the dossier "fueled" the investigation moving forward.

In other words, the Republican claim that the unverified Steele dossier was used to fuel the FBI counterintelligence operation after it was initiated. The Democrats countered by demanding that the investigation was not initiated by the Steele dossier (something that was not in dispute). Again, another classic strawman logical fallacy.

Your straw man is a logical fallacy by your own making. You are claiming, despite the evidence and the timeline, an (assumptions). The dossier, that didn't enter into the investigation until September. Papadopoulos was the motivation for the investigation. It triggered the investigation in July..

The Democrats and the FBI were not colluding with each other, but in your "mind",oh yes they are!

Anonymous said...

Buying a six pack of sam adams with my crumbs

Hmmm... since it was the equivalent to about a 3% raise...

Only being able to purchase a six pack of beer with your savings, suggests you work part time at Burger King." CHT

Opie works there for the free food.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

4th grade level English by


cannot tell the difference between admiring trump, voting for trump, or accepting the fact that trump is our president and therefore deciding to work with trump to advance the best interests of the nation.

you're such a fucking fraud. no wonder you need a perpetual copy/paste crutch. without it you'd have nothing to say.

Anonymous said...

Blogger Roger Amick said...

4th grade level English by



like i said alky, without a copy/paste you have nothing at all to say.



Anonymous said...



Your straw man is a logical fallacy by your own making. You are claiming, despite the evidence and the timeline, an (assumptions). The dossier, that didn't enter into the investigation until September. Papadopoulos was the motivation for the investigation. It triggered the investigation in July..


how many times are you going to beg to have your ass kicked on this topic, alky?

CH has already stomped you into a puddle and walked it dry. LOL.

Anonymous said...

Blogger Roger Amick said...
What I said that escaped the racist rodent bastard .



no asshole, it didn't. the name of the show was "firing line" and yes, he had asshole liberal guests like gore vidal. he discussed, not "disgusted" various topics, and yeah, he denounced the birchers as did many other prominent conservatives of the day.

so what you posted is basically meaningless. you act as if you've established a level of credibility, yet you rely on copy/pastes like your crippled ass relies on your walker.

C.H. Truth said...

So from what I can gather...

Roger, who is an admitted alcoholic, admitted under-performer, who has cost the government millions of dollars in medical expenses, and currently cannot walk on his own...

Is the man we should listen to, because of his vast life experience?

commie said...

CH, you are turning into an intellectual desert with BS like the above..Maybe you should go beat your wife....you will feel better I am sure.....sad commentary for such a genius as you claim to be....LOL

Commonsense said...

Do you beat your wife Dennis? You mother? Mother in law?

Are they to blame for your miserable existence?

Just wondering what made you think of women beating?

commie said...

menstral the cramp asks...

Do you beat your wife Dennis? You mother? Mother in law?

Why do you ask, since you treat yours like dog shit, why would it bother you if I hit mine???? Seems the porter affair didn't bother you, why would little me affect any thing in your loser life??????? BTW, MIL passed in November....I am sure you are crushed.....Something CH did to his wife that he didn't tell us, like it matters....

Anonymous said...

Are they to blame for your miserable existence?


this is probably to blame:


SATURDAY, Feb. 24, 2018 -- Brain tissue damaged by a stroke can liquefy, become toxic and then harm remaining healthy parts of the brain -- possibly causing dementia, new research in mice suggests.
"Most people probably assume that the brain heals in the same way as other tissues, but it doesn't," researcher Kristian Doyle said in a news release from the University of Arizona College of Medicine in Tucson.

"Dead brain tissue doesn't just heal and go away like other bodily injuries," he said. "Instead it liquefies and remains in this liquefactive state for a long time."


https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2018/02/24/Liquefied-brain-tissue-post-stroke-could-harm-healthy-parts-study/6991519501024/?utm_source=sec&utm_campaign=sl&utm_medium=1

commie said...

Brain tissue damaged by a stroke can liquefy, become toxic and then harm remaining healthy parts of the brain -- possibly causing dementia, new research in mice suggests.

Certainly explains a lot about you and the rest of your trump sycophants....LOLOLOL