Monday, June 4, 2018

Colorado Baker wins USSC case 7-2

Bottom Line: Baker does not have to bake the cake

"The outcome of cases like this in other circumstances must await further elaboration in the courts, all in the context of recognizing that these disputes must be resolved with tolerance, without undue disrespect to sincere religious beliefs, and without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market." 

Kennedy reasoned that Phillips, in refusing to create a same-sex wedding cake, had good reason to believe he was within his rights. State law at the time allowed merchants some latitude to decline specific messages, such as those demeaning gay people and gay marriages.
The government cannot impose regulations hostile to citizens’ religious beliefs, the ruling said.
During oral argument in December, Kennedy and other conservative justices had expressed concern about the potential effect on other merchants with strong religious objections to same-sex marriage, from chefs to florists.

Most observers are calling this a "narrow ruling" in that it does not create a larger precedent that would allow businesses to refuse to serve gay people in general. But that, of course, was never really at issue (as much as the left wanted to frame it that way).

What was at issue is whether or not you can "force" a business owner to specifically cater a message or specifically require them to endorse an event (such as a same sex marriage) with their services, that is against their religious views.

The legal argument has always been on the side of the bakers, florists, caterers, and such. The Religious Freedom and Restoration Act, along with the first amendment provides both a federal law, and a constitutional right to refuse to endorse a specific activity... whether that be a Nazi rally, an Adult movie awards banquet, or even a same sex wedding.

That all being said, look for more litigation in the future, with many liberal Justices ruling against the business owners, as if the decision from the USSC did not exist.
_______

UPDATE: I think some people seem to be missing a particular point here, or possibly seeing a point that may (or may not actually exist).

It's clear that the Court believes that the Colorado rulings were based largely on a hostile attitude regarding Jack Phillip's religious beliefs. For some, this begs the question as to whether or not the USSC would have ruled differently had the Colorado Administrative agency been more "respectful" of Phillips and his views.

I think the question is wrong headed. It's not whether the USSC would have ruled differently if the Colorado Administrative agency had been more respectful. It's whether or not the Colorado Administrative agency would have been able to muster the same ruling "without" being hostile to religious views.

If you consider this ruling along with the 5-4 Hobby Lobby ruling, it's clear that the USSC has legally concluded that sincere religious freedom can and should be protected, even in a business setting. The key word here seems to be "sincere" as it describes these religious views. It's difficult to see how you reconcile the legal viewpoint that Phillips has legal protection for his sincere religious viewpoints, but still must create a cake specific for a ceremony he clearly feels is in direct violation of his religious view points.

Until someone reconciles this puzzle for me, I would stand by the assessment that this is a pretty clear victory for both Phillips and others who find themselves in similar situations.

154 comments:

James said...

No problem with this narrow ruling.

Well put, James said...

"The outcome of cases like this in other circumstances must await further elaboration in the courts, all in the context of recognizing that these disputes must be resolved with tolerance, without undue disrespect to sincere religious beliefs, and without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market."

C.H. Truth said...

James

Rest assured that there was likely a 5-4 majority for a broader mandate (at least as it pertains to ceremonies such as gay marriage)...

This was a classic mediated Roberts court decision, where the scope was likely narrowed in order to garner the extra two votes. 7-2 seems much more impressive then a 5-4 decision which would garner much howling at the moon.

But make no mistake, the issue at hand is that courts cannot just "ignore" the rights of one person in order to "push" the rights of another. This decision is demanding that "religious rights" be considered to be just as important as "gay rights".

You have to be considerate of the rights of both parties, and your ruling has to be deemed "fair" under that pretense.

The previous Colorado rulings (and most every ruling involving religious objections to same sex marriage) did not take religious rights into consideration (or at least did not see them as equally important).

commie said...

Typical CH ejaculating after a single stroke.....A pyrrhic victory at best but the bigots will celebrate....It ain't over and kennedy did opine that in his write up.....

commie said...

best assured that there was likely a 5-4 IDEOLOGY majority for a broader mandate

Fixed it for you CH.....

James said...

Make no mistake, Ch,

"...these disputes must be resolved ... without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market."

Seems you want to lift the first part high above the second part, which is cited above.
_____________

You used to be a strong advocate of equal rights for gays. Now you would gladly relinquish that for any right wing political advantage.

cowardly king obama said...

Great that so many that were against this are now in favor of this "narrow" decision.

The tide is quickly taking out that "blue wave"

KEEP IT UP USSC !!!

Anonymous said...



i've always gotten a kick out of lines like this:

and without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market."

in virtually every case, those seeking to buy the cake, rent the wedding venue, etc. are trolling the proprietor of the establishment fully aware of that person's religious views. iow's they've gone looking for trouble. i'm sure that was the case with this colorado baker as i know it was the case at liberty ridge farm costing the owners $13K..

James said...

Hey, Ch, tell us:

Cab Trump pardon himself?

Anonymous said...

This is another Winning Bigly moment.

James said...

*Can Trump pardon himself?

Anonymous said...

Cab, bawwwaaa
"Cab Trump pardon himself?"

James said...

The question is addressed to Ch.

Anonymous said...

Can Trump pardon himself?, gay jane

Yes.
But not on empeachment.

So , jane when does your team sue for Empeachment ?

Commonsense said...

At the very least the decision will stop the cherry-picking of Christian business in order to persecute them.

States can no longer punish them for their religious views.

cowardly king obana said...

ANOTHER GREAT DAY IN AMERICA !!!

Things are really looking up.

Can't wait for the FACTS of the next IG Report.

Remember we need to pay attention to the FACTS and not the FAKE NEWS.

Anonymous said...

Blogger Commonsense said...

At the very least the decision will stop the cherry-picking of Christian business in order to persecute them.



i disagree. liberals are relentless when it comes to shit like this, they refuse to take no for an answer, and ultimately they act like small children throwing a tantrum. liberals will continue to troll the religious. they can't help themselves.


C.H. Truth said...

James...

I have ALWAYS maintained that you need to balance the rights of religion with the rights of the gay community.

When it comes to that balance, I would offer that whichever side is attempting to "force" the other to do something they do not want to do, is the side that is in the wrong.

I am a believer that it's not up to the Christian to demand that the gay person cannot get married to someone of the same sex, or that he/she can only marry a person of the opposite sex.

Likewise, I am a believer that it's not up to the gay person to demand that a religious person must work in support of their particular same sex marriage.

Brad said...

these disputes must be resolved ... without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market."
__________________

Give me a break.

Anonymous said...

Winning

**Supreme Court sides with Trump in pregnant immigrant teen case

The Supreme Court is siding with the Trump administration over the American Civil Liberties Union in the case of a pregnant immigrant teen who was able to obtain an abortion after filing a lawsuit.

After months of inaction on the case, the court Monday vacated a lower court decision favoring the teen, who was held in government custody after illegally entering the country. The justices ruled that was the proper course because the case became moot after the teen obtained an abortion.

Justice Department accuses ACLU of misleading attorneys about pregnant teen's abortion**

Anonymous said...

Mo Rocca asked, “You hear from Trump supporters who say, ‘You know, the press slobbered all over President Obama, he could do no wrong. And now this guy can do no right. What gives, that there’s a kind of whiplash?'”

Clinton said, “Well, they did treat him differently than other Democrats and Republicans. That was the political press.”

Went asked why, Clinton said, “You know, I don’t know. They liked him, and they liked having the first African-American president. And he was a good president, I think. I don’t agree with President Trump’s assessment of his service.”

Commonsense said...

i disagree. liberals are relentless when it comes to shit like this, they refuse to take no for an answer

True, but they'll have less of a leg to stand on. Courts will be required to apply the same test for religious rights as any other civil right.

That means in balancing rights undue burden will have to be proved.

In this case the gay couple would have to prove they could not readily get the service from a another vendor.

Myballs seeing America become great again said...

Montana senator john tester is suing to get the state green party removed from the November ballot because he'll surely lose votes.

So much for every vote is worth counting.

Meanwhile pelosi is bashing the strong jobs report and good economy.

Sounds like a blue wave of desperation to me.

James said...

CH TRUTH: I am a believer that it's not up to the Christian to demand that the gay person cannot get married to someone of the same sex, or that he/she can only marry a person of the opposite sex.

JAMES: Strange, I think I distinctly remember your defending those who were for passing civil laws that would prohibit the legality of same sex marriage, and this on the grounds of freedom of religious conscience coup,ed to their understanding of certain Bible passages.

James said...

*conscience, coupled to their...

James said...

Ch, can Trump pardon himself?

Anonymous said...

Jane, again , Yes

But not for Empeachment, so get to it.

Anonymous said...

Why has the BLM, Intifa, 25th and empeachment groups gone dark?

Anonymous said...



In this case the gay couple would have to prove they could not readily get the service from a another vendor.

i agree, and that's really the point. i'm convinced that in many cases the gays already knew the religious proclivities of the business owner and sought out that business as a troll.

simple procurement of the cake or venue was not enough. they literally sought to make a federal case out of it. i'm just glad that for once the religious freedoms of the baker were not crushed this time.

James said...

KD, nobody cares what you think.

Ch, can Trump pardon himself?

Brad said...

“If I were President of the United States and I had a lawyer that told me I could pardon myself, I think I would hire a new lawyer.”
— Senate Judiciary Chairman Charles Grassley (R-IA), quoted by CNN, on President Trump claiming he had an “absolute right” to pardon himself.

Commonsense said...

JAMES: Strange, I think I distinctly remember your defending those who were for passing civil laws that would prohibit the legality of same sex marriage

Many people don't see the need of the government conferring marital status at all.

Marriage is chiefly a social and religious convention.

Or to put it another way, just because two men (or two women) signs a piece of paper and holds a ceremony doesn't mean they are married in the eyes of most people.

Marriage is an institution derived from traditions and customs and in most cultures there is no tradition of custom of same sex marriage.

C.H. Truth said...

Strange, I think I distinctly remember your defending those who were for passing civil laws that would prohibit the legality of same sex marriage

My personal position on same sex marriage has never changed, James. I have friends and relatives who are gay, and have even attended same sex marriages. That should be well known to all. In fact, one of the pictures Roger took from my facebook page and posted on his blog page (where I was wearing a top hat and colored lei) was from a wedding reception of Patrick and Kevin.

But my "personal position" and my political position are two different things.

I am a firm believer in the way it is done in most of Europe, where the state only recognizes "civil unions" rather than legal marriages. They allow the individual churches to determine whether or not they want to allow same sex marriages. I wish the state didn't use the term "marriage" as it is viewed as a religious ceremony by many people

I believed (prior to the USSC decision) that the issue of same sex marriage should be a state decision, based on the will of the people. (not the will of the courts). That being said, given the vote, I would have cast it "in favor" of recognizing same sex marriages.

____


But at the end of the day, the reality is still the same. People will always be more likely to side with the people who are being "told" how to act, than with those who are the ones "telling" others how to act.

That's a fundamental truth, which you can ignore at your own peril.


James said...

There was a time when I was for calling same sex marriage something other than marriage. Perhaps "pair-age" or partnering, of some other term. I am now of the opinion that this would unduly discriminate against those who wish to have their same sex unions viewed on the same dignified level as the union of others.

I evolved in my thinking on this.

So I am opposed to those who want to "tell" people of same sex unions what their unions may be called. Unfortunately, this necessitates "telling" people who do not want to recognize such unions that they are, civilly and legally, marriages.

James said...

Commonsense: Marriage is chiefly a social and religious convention.

No, it is not that "chiefly." Chiefly if it a legal contract with all kinds of societal privileges and responsibilities.

Your statement is incredibly simplistic and erroneous.

Commonsense said...

A domestic partnership is a legal contract.

It only needs to be recognized by the court.

Marriage is a culture and social institution.

It's not just a legal convenience.

Commonsense said...

Or to put it another way.

It makes no diffrence to God or your community if you sign a piece of paper.

If you take vows before God and/or your community you are married.

C.H. Truth said...

James,

In France (for instance) nobody gets a state sanctioned marriage. Everybody gets a state sanctioned "civil union". Doesn't matter if it's a man and a women, two men, two women, or a man and a German Shepard. They are all treated the same.

I got "married" in France, got a marriage certificate from our wedding organizer, but it has no legal meaning anywhere. That's the way it works there.

So I am not advocating that a man and a woman can get legally "married" but that same sex couples can only garner a "civil union". I am advocating that they should get the same legal benefits.

But if I had my absolute druthers, we would follow the path of France and other countries, and put the issue to rest. Civil unions would replace "marriage" as our legal means of partnership.

Anonymous said...

Ch, can Trump pardon himself?" Jane. 3x's

Yes, he can. But for Empeachment.
Why has your team dropped the Empeachment talk?

Is it because your team is getting bitch slapped in the polls over it.

Hell alky had an able bodied person raise a white flag for him on 25th and Empeachment.

C.H. Truth said...

James -

Obama could have pardoned Obama.
Bush 43 could have pardoned Bush 43.
Clinton could have pardoned Clinton.
Bush 41 could have pardoned Bush 41.
Reagan could have pardoned Reagan.

Etc, etc, etc...

But of course, it becomes an issue when the President is Trump.

Anonymous said...

Paper marriage is a realities new goverment created invention.

Good news, divorce rates for sausage smokers and carpet cleaners are on part with normal people.

James said...

Neither is "just a legal 'convenience.'"

Marriage, whether gay or straight, is a legal and moral bond that carries all sorts of legally guaranteed and guarded responsibilities toward spouses, children, other family members or relatives, and to society as a whole.

Commonsense said...

So I am opposed to those who want to "tell" people of same sex unions what their unions may be called.

Well Jesus took care of that for you:

Matthew 19
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


So as a follower of Jesus, how do you justify any other definition?

C.H. Truth said...

James has his own philosophy...

"Do as I say, not as Jesus says."

James said...

Ch, could Obama, both Bushes, Clinton, Reagan, OR NIXON have pardoned themselves without becoming immediately involved in impeachment proceedings?

None of them dared to do or perhaps even thought about doing what Trump has done by even raising the issue.

Apparently he believes himself to be above the Constitution and the laws.

C.H. Truth said...

Apparently he believes himself to be above the Constitution and the laws.

If a President can pardon themselves, then doing so would not be either above the constitution or the law.


But let's wait and see here James. I think someone would have prove that Trump committed some sort of crime before he can actually "pardon" himself.

At this point in time James, the odds are that one of the people responsible for investigating him are more likely to be found guilty of a crime than Trump is.

James said...

Jesus quoted that scripture to forbid divorce. So are all divorces illegal?

James said...

I am willing patiently to wait, Ch.
Why isn't Trump?
Why aren't you?

Commonsense said...

Actually you don't need to be convicted or indicted of anything to be pardon.

Ford pardon Nixon simple because he thought the indictment and trial of an ex-president would be bad for the country.

Of course the liberals went after Ford with a vengeance.

Yes, a president can pardon himself, nothing in the constitution forbids it. However, he can't pardon himself from impeachment. That is forbidden.

C.H. Truth said...

Jesus quoted that scripture to forbid divorce. So are all divorces illegal?

The choice between hell on earth and hell during the afterlife, huh?

Anonymous said...

BILL & HILLARY CLINTON.

Please keep grabbing headlines, doing interviews and selling your books.

C.H. Truth said...

I am willing patiently to wait, Ch

Patience might not be the best strategy.

The longer we wait, the more people start to realize it's partisan, and the more people believe it's going on too long.

Recent polls show that a majority now believe it's more of a witch hunt than a legitimate investigation, and that a fairly significant majority would like to see it end either right away or before midterms.

If Mueller is still investigating come October with no end in sight, you will see special counsel approvals in the gutter.

Anonymous said...

What nonsense.

"
Marriage, whether gay or straight, is a legal and moral bond that carries all sorts of legally guaranteed and guarded responsibilities toward spouses, children, other family members or relatives, and to society as a whole."

James said...

Well, Ch, since that will fit with your strategy, you have even more reason to be patient.

Or do you actually fear what may yet come?

Myballs said...

Libs are now pissing themselves in snowflakeness over this scotus decision. Enough already. Its too fuckin bad that you cant have everything go the way you'd like.

Anonymous said...

********* Breaking News*******

Joe Biden is in for Running in 2020 against Pres. TRUMP.

OH THE NEWS TODAY IS SO RED.

Commonsense said...

Jesus quoted that scripture to forbid divorce. So are all divorces illegal?

Jesus's definition of marriage is quite clear. And not all divorces were illegal:

Matthew 19
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.


He also had this to say about homosexuality:

10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.


It's important to note here that being a homosexual (eunuch) is not in itself a sin.

Fornication is the sin.

Anonymous said...

MyBalls, has the left picked out a ribbon color and/or hat design for this?

James said...

Commensa, you are in total error. A eunuch was not a homosexual. Look it up.

C.H. Truth said...

Or do you actually fear what may yet come?

Not at all...

I actually look forward to the variety of I.G. reports that will be coming out over the next few months.

Oh, and the eventual Mueller report that will begrudedly confirm that there was no collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

Myballs said...

Yes. Dunce caps.

Or worse, cleveland browns caps.

James said...

Tell Trump to stop yelling then. He has nothing at all to fear. Calm him down.

Anonymous said...

James is a stupid ass snowflake. We real men don't fear a thing. Because, we walk with GOD.

Commonsense said...

Commensa, you are in total error. A eunuch was not a homosexual. Look it up.

Primarily and literally, a eunuch is an emasculated man (Deuteronomy 23:1).

Many biblical scholars believe Jesus was referring to homosexuals as well as those physically castrated.

It doesn't change the point. Being homosexual in itself is not the sin.

Homosexual relations is the sin.

James said...

No, Commensa. You are wrong. I know of no biblical scholars who think that. Not a one.

Eunuchs were often used by kings to take care of their harems because they would offer no danger of being involved with the king's wives.

James said...

JAMES: Jesus quoted that scripture to forbid divorce. So are all divorces illegal?

CHTRUTH: The choice between hell on earth and hell during the afterlife, huh?
______________

Actually, CH, both Jesus and the the apostle Paul, citing Jesus' teaching, opposed divorce,* and Paul even said that in the short time that was left before Jesus would return (he thought), church people should neither divorce, nor even marry, nor even re-marry (if a spouse had died or left!!! (1 Corinthians chapter 7.)

Even Jesus himself thought the time was short (Mark 9:1; 13:30; 14:62). But had he and Paul have known that we were in for another ca. two thousand years of time (at the least), I don't think either of them would have opposed getting out of the "hell on earth" of an unhappy marriage.

But of course that makes me a liberal who just believes what he wants to believe, doesn't it?

Well no, it doesn't. It makes me a scholar who is willing to see what really is there in the Bible.
____________

Jesus' opposition to divorce in Mark, Luke, and (as cited by Paul) in 1 Corinthians is absolute, with the one exception given in Matthew 5:32, where divorce is permitted only in the case of unfaithfulness on the part of the other spouse).

(Some scholars think that relaxation was added by the later church, believing it to be in accord with the spiritual direction of their living Lord.)

Anonymous said...

The White Flags are going yp like Spring flowers.

"Comedian Jon Stewart says Democrats really “don’t give a fuck” about alleged collusion between President Donald Trump and Russia to influence the 2016 election and, instead, urged the Left to defeat the President through the electoral process with “ideas.”
“In the same way that Donald Trump doesn’t really care about the word ‘cunt,’ let’s be honest with ourselves,” Stewart said during a Q&A session at the cultural festival Clusterfest, “We don’t really give a fuck about Russia.”


Lol, Funny guy, oh wait, he is attempting to be real serious.

Commonsense said...

Wrong, the exception for found in the original Greek version of Matthew.

Commonsense said...

Anonymous James said...
No, Commensa. You are wrong. I know of no biblical scholars who think that. Not a one.


Of course not. They don't exist out outside you mind.

But you are dodging the original question.

How as a pastor of a Christian church can you contradict the teachings and the word of Jesus Christ?

C.H. Truth said...

Tell Trump to stop yelling then. He has nothing at all to fear. Calm him down.

Trump is Trump. Last time I checked he doesn't listen to me. But I will give him a call after work. See what he says.

But the reality is that ever since Rudy joined his legal team and the two of them have taken turns being bulls in a china shop, that Mueller's reputation is taking "tremendous" hits... as is his entire investigation.

Whatever it is that they are doing, it seems to be working.

commie said...

Commonsense said...
At the very least the decision will stop the cherry-picking of Christian business in order to persecute them.

It is amazing to me you out do your previous most stupid comments almost daily.....the only person who won was a singular baker whose decision cannot be used in other cases....kinda like gore v busch......yeah you won, but only the biased and bigots are celebrating today.....it very well could change in the next week or so......but who cares??????

James said...

Whoever laughs last laughs best, Ch.

commie said...

Funny guy, oh wait, he is attempting to be real serious.

Sure loser.....I'm sure your next paycheck will be coming right after you join the burgeoning trump job market where even assholes like you can find work......

Anonymous said...

CASissy , what is wrong with your State?

"The California Primaries Are A Glorious Mess. They Could Determine Who Wins The House.
The state’s jungle primary system could leave Democrats locked out of key races in November."

Cite: HuffPo

Commonsense said...

.the only person who won was a singular baker whose decision cannot be used in other cases..

It will be used in every brief that defends Christian business from state persecution.

You can count on it.

James said...

COMMENSA: Wrong, the exception for(sic) found in the original Greek version of Matthew.

JAMES: The exception IS found in the original Greek version of Matthew. But Matthew in its present form was written sometime after Mark was written, and Mark was written ca. 67-72 CE. This means that Matthew (because it was largely based on Mark) HAD to have been written later, although the apostle Matthew may have written portions of it earlier in Aramaic, and those portions came to be translated into Greek and incorporated into both the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke, with much agreement in the texts, but some changes.

Scholars call that common material Q.

commie said...

menstral the cramp speaking for jesus postulates that...

Homosexual relations is the sin.


Wow, that sure is news to most....Where in the bible does it says men butt fucking is not allowed??????

Anonymous said...




Whatever it is that they are doing, it seems to be working.


working like a charm, as the alky seems to be losing a little more of his shit each day.


commie said...

It will be used in every brief that defends Christian business from state persecution.

Wanna bet asswipe???? Put your money where your big fat mouth is....But, you don't have the ballz....

C.H. Truth said...

Whoever laughs last laughs best, Ch.

Trump fans have been laughing for the past year and a half... all while the Trump haters have been giving themselves ulcers, migraines, and nightmares!

commie said...

Going to be very difficult for others to meet what kennedy ruled on...

n an opinion by Justice Anthony M. Kennedy that leaves many questions unanswered, the court held that a Colorado commission had not adequately taken into account the religious beliefs of baker Jack Phillips

Thanx for playing cramps...

C.H. Truth said...

the only person who won was a singular baker whose decision cannot be used in other cases

Is that what you've been told?

James said...

I'm laughing right now, Ch.

Commonsense said...

So when you stated this:

(Some scholars think that relaxation was added by the later church, believing it to be in accord with the spiritual direction of their living Lord.)

Which later church did you mean? The eastern Greek church? The Roman church? The medieval catholic church?

commie said...

It ain't close to over.....
By Editorial Board
June 4 at 2:27 PM
THE SUPREME COURT temporized on Monday on a major question of LGBT civil rights — specifically, whether a state can require a wedding cake baker to sell his products to same-sex couples as he does to heterosexual couples. Avoiding a sweeping decision, the justices nevertheless laid the foundations for a more ambitious ruling in the future. Businesses cannot pick and choose their customers based on race. States should be able to extend that simple fairness to LGBT people, too. The court on Monday came closer to saying so.

By a 7-to-2 vote, the justices found that the state of Colorado, which has a strong anti-discrimination law forbidding businesses from discriminating among customers based on sexual orientation, impermissibly violated a cake baker’s religious freedoms by sanctioning him after he refused to sell a wedding cake to a same-sex couple, of the same sort the baker routinely made for heterosexual couples. When the couple complained, the Colorado Civil Rights Commission referred the case to a judge, who agreed with the couple.

The case could have tested how far states can go in requiring fairness for LGBT people in the public marketplace. But the majority opinion dodged the question, instead condemning the state’s Civil Rights Commission for improper reasoning in applying Colorado’s anti-discrimination law. The government “cannot act in a manner that passes judgment upon or presupposes the illegitimacy of religious beliefs and practices,” Justice Anthony M. Kennedy wrote for the majority. In considering the baker’s case, the commission “was neither tolerant nor respectful of [baker Jack] Phillips’ religious beliefs.”

The court cited statements that commissioners made that appeared to disparage the baker’s religious views and suggest that they were insincere. It also pointed out that the commission embraced the notion that bakers could decline to create cakes with anti-LGBT messages because they are offensive, but that the baker who refused to bake a cake for a same-sex couple could not refuse on the grounds that doing so would be offensive to him.

Finally, Mr. Kennedy warned that the court could not in the future rule expansively in favor of a baker’s religious claims, “lest all purveyors of goods and services who object to gay marriages for moral and religious reasons in effect be allowed to put up signs saying ‘no goods or services will be sold if they will be used for gay marriages,’ something that would impose a serious stigma on gay persons.”

It might take more time, but the court is heading in the right direction.

Commonsense said...

the court held that a Colorado commission had not adequately taken into account the religious beliefs of baker Jack Phillips

Which is why it will be used in every legal brief defending Christian businesses from state persecution.

The state dispising a religious view is not adequate enough.

commie said...

Is that what you've been told?

That's what people who are infinitely smarter than you are saying.......

C.H. Truth said...

That's what people who are infinitely smarter than you are saying....

You mean the same ones who thought that the Baker would lose!

Commonsense said...

Yeah, those smart people.

commie said...

You mean the same ones who thought that the Baker would lose!

Nice try asswipe.....why don't you elucidate on some of those people who on record said that........I'll wait.......I'm sure there are a couple and I sure would like to read how they said. it......LOLOLOL

James said...

COMMENSA: So when you stated this:
----(Some scholars think that relaxation was added by the later church, believing it to be in accord with the spiritual direction of their living Lord.)

----Which later church did you mean? The eastern Greek church? The Roman church? The medieval catholic church?
_______________

The very early later church, Commensa,,
well within the first century.

Here is a comparison of the Q material
as found in Matthew and Luke:

Matthew:
Whoever divorces his wife
EXCEPT ON THE GROUND OF UNCHASTITY
and marries another
makes her an adulteress...

Luke:
Whoever divorces his wife
and marries another
commits adultery...
_______

And then we have Mark:

Mark:
Whoever divorces his wife
and marries another
commits adultery against her...

And then we have the early (ca. 57 CE)
admonition of Paul that, on a command of the
Lord (Jesus), wives and husbands should not
divorce (1 Cor. 7:10-11).

James said...

OR IS IT TIME FOR EVERYONE TO STOP LAUGHING?

A Constitutional Crisis Is Underway

Jonathan Chait: “For most of Donald Trump’s presidency, the specter of a coming constitutional crisis has loomed over the Russia investigation. The newly leaked memo by Trump’s lawyers… suggests that such a crisis is not merely a likelihood, but that it has already begun.

“The memo proposes several tendentious interpretations of the publicly available facts of Trump’s behavior, along with some legally questionable and amateurish citations of precedent. But the most important passage is its sweeping assertion of presidential authority.

“The implications of this authority are breathtaking. Trump, in their view, has unlimited control to open or close any federal investigation.”
_______________

Actually, it's good that we know how uncommitted to the rule of law this "presidency" is.

James said...

HOWARD SCHULTZ FOR PRESIDENT!!!

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

President Trump's "numerous legal scholars" apparently aren't on the same page as the Justice Department.

Trump took to Twitter on Monday to claim his "absolute right" to grant himself a presidential pardon, though he said it would be unnecessary as he has "done nothing wrong." He cited "numerous legal scholars" to back his claim.

However, as Bloomberg reporter Steven Dennis pointed out, that wasn't the case at the end of former President Richard Nixon's time in office. "Under the fundamental rule that no one may be a judge in his own case, the president cannot pardon himself," the Department of Justice declared in 1974. The DOJ spelled it out just four days before Nixon resigned, explaining that the president's pardoning power "does not extend to the president himself."

Trump's claim echoed that of his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, who also said without evidence that Trump "probably" has the power to pardon himself. When Nixon was facing impeachment, however, the DOJ decided that only Congress would be allowed to grant a president a pardon in certain cases. Summer Meza

Anonymous said...

What a wonderful to start a week , with more Winning Bigly!!

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I read the judgement and don't nave a serous trouble with it. I don't agree but on Constitutional grands, his freedom of religion is supported.

The best response is to make sure that no one who disagrees does not do any business with this bigot.

Anonymous said...

Day late Roger.

Too funny.

Anonymous said...

A decesion handed down by the USSC is the law of the Land.

Anonymous said...

***** Breaking News*****

Eric Holder running in 2020, have to defeat Biden who is all in for 2020.

C.H. Truth said...

Roger - the fact that you believe people with Christian beliefs to be "bigots" is part of the reason this whole thing is falling apart. In fact, it becomes easier to argue that "you" are bigoted against Christians... just as the Colorado Administrative board was bigoted against Phillips.

Because basically that is what seven justices of the Supreme Court stated with this ruling. The Colorado powers to be were overly hostile to someone with religious beliefs. It was not only unconstitutional, but at the end of the day, it was simply mean spirited (and yes, bigoted). One judge ordered Phillips into sensitivity training because he follows a religious belief that was the rule of the land for thousands of years. The USSC would have been justified in sending that Judge to the same training.

You should stop to consider what you are saying.

C.H. Truth said...

Thanks for the cue James...

Jonathon Chait!?!?! LOL!!!

Anonymous said...

I read the judgement " dumbass

Yeah, except that is not what it is called mrs. Constitutional scholar.

C.H. Truth said...

Opie

There are several fundamental facts that have to be acknowledged:

1) That religious freedom of an individual does extend to the business world. This was found to be the case in Hobby Lobby, and now in the Phillips case.

2) That future cases of alleged discrimination will have to consider the fundamental free exercise of religion. People can argue all day long about the semantics of the ruling and all of the subsequent affirming and dissenting opinions. The end result was that the Supreme Court ruled that the Colorado Courts got it wrong and that Phillips had a constitutional right to not bake the cake.

3) That the religious liberty argument has two votes to spare right now. You have to believe that it's going to be a lot easier to lose Kagan and Breyer the next time a similar case comes before the Court. But there is very likely four votes pretty firm for religious arguments and the fifth (Kennedy) has been along for the religious liberty argument many times in the past including Hobby Lobby.

4) If Kennedy were to step down and replaced by a Trump nominee, there will likely be five firm votes for religious rights.


I will concede that this was not an overwhelming victory for religious liberty, but it was most certainly a bitter pill to swallow for the Colorado Court, as well as other Judges who are prone to knee jerk put "gay rights" ahead of "religious rights".

Myballs said...

Another disgusting bullshit tweet from a democrat. What the hell is wrong with them??

Anonymous said...

They are Surfing that BLUE Wave, dude.

Anonymous said...

Sausage/ carpet cleaners, not a right.

Religion freedom a right.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

You're still in love with the President.

President Donald Trump has called off a visit by the Philadelphia Eagles to the White House Tuesday due to the dispute over whether NFL players must stand during the playing of the national anthem.

Trump says in a statement that some members of the Super Bowl championship team "disagree with their President because he insists that they proudly stand for the National Anthem, hand on heart."

Trump says the team wanted to send a smaller delegation, but fans who planned to attend "deserve better."

He says he'll instead be hosting "a different type of ceremony" with the U.S. Marine Band.

He will probably make sure that not to keep the band all white.

Anonymous said...

The best response is to make sure that no one who disagrees does not do any business with this bigot."

Too mentally broken for words.

Commonsense said...

Wow, that sure is news to most....Where in the bible does it says men butt fucking is not allowed??????

Well it says it about 27 times in the bible but I'm not going to post it for your convenience.

You can look them up yourself. And while you're at it you should read a few other passages addressing anger, hate, and vulgarity.

It may do you some good.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Only a percentage of Christians believe that being gay is a choice between good and evil. The Devil makes you gay.

It's a religious interpretation that I think is a justification for bigotry.

Were you ever attracted to a man? Neither did I. Jesus didn't make me straight. It's part of being human and some of us have the DNA that makes us gay or straight.

You're supposed to be analytic. No longer.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

President Trump:

As the commander in chief and chief law enforcement officer of the United States he could order the FBI to arrest Hillary Clinton and as commander in chief he could order a firing squad to kill Hillary Clinton. Coldheartedtruth would say that was within the powers granted to him that was within his power as President.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

For kput'z sake

Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers -- none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God. There was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away, and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you.

Don't you realize that your bodies are actually parts of Christ? Should a man take his body, which belongs to Christ, and join it to a prostitute? Never! And don't you know that if a man joins himself to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? For the Scriptures say, "The two are united into one." But the person who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Run away from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1 Corinthians 6:15-18

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Give honor to marriage, and remain faithful to one another in marriage. God will surely judge people who are immoral and those who commit adultery. Hebrews 13:4

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your lives will produce these evil results: sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure, idolatry, participation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other kinds of sin. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God's people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes -- these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is really an idolater who worships the things of this world. Don't be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the terrible anger of God comes upon all those who disobey him. Don't participate in the things these people do. For though your hearts were once full of darkness, now you are full of light from the Lord, and your behavior should show it!

Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness; instead, rebuke and expose them. It is shameful even to talk about the things that ungodly people do in secret. But when the light shines on them, it becomes clear how evil these things are. This is why it is said, "Awake, O sleeper, rise up from the dead, and Christ will give you light." Ephesians 5:3-8, Ephesians 5:11-14

Those who live only to satisfy their own sinful desires will harvest the consequences of decay and death. But those who live to please the Spirit will harvest everlasting life from the Spirit. Galatians 6:8

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your lives will produce these evil results: sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure, idolatry, participation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other kinds of sin. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Anonymous said...

Bill Clinton fucked up on his weekend pimp his book tour. Old creeper.

C.H. Truth said...

Roger - being opposed to same sex marriage is different from being anti-gay. One of the reasons that Phillips had good cause was his willingness to otherwise serve gay patrons.

You have learn the ability to be tolerant of the views that differ with yours. You wouldn't come across as such a high and mighty self absorbed bigot who believes he knows better than everyone else.

James said...

Trump disinvites Philadelphia Eagles from White House Super Bowl celebration

President Donald Trump rescinded an invitation for the Philadelphia Eagles to visit the White House on Tuesday to celebrate their Super Bowl victory.

“They disagree with their President because he insists that they proudly stand for the National Anthem, hand on heart, in honor of the great men and women of our military and the people of our country,” Trump said in a statement. “The Eagles wanted to send a smaller delegation, but the 1,000 fans planning to attend the event deserve better.”

He said the fans would still be welcome at the White House on Tuesday but for a different ceremony meant to “honor our great country” and “pay tribute to the heroes who fight to protect it.”

Several Eagles players, including safety Malcolm Jenkins and defensive end Chris Long, had said they would skip the ceremony while others had waffled on their participation. Eagles officials had left the decision up to the players.
_______________

It seems to me that any football players who want to do so, black or white, can stand in line in honor of the flag during the singing of the National Anthem, while at the same time raising their arms in what was once known as the black power salute, with clenched fist, as a way of saying,

"We respect and honor the flag, but not this white supremacist of a would-be-dictator President or the racists who support him."

What will Trump do then?

James said...

7:27 through 7:29

Did someone forget to tell Trump how serious a sin sexual immorality is?

caliphate4vr said...

Yer an idiot, pedophile

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Three dead issues for 2018 for the Dems.
1, Jobs
2, Impeachment
3, Blue wave


So what is the unified 2018 message/policies?

Anonymous said...

Jane , who are you quoting?
"We respect and honor the flag, but not this white supremacist of a would-be-dictator President or the racists who support him."

Or is that you doing that idiot shit you do, make up dumb shit and put "" .


Brad said...

Did someone forget to tell Trump how serious a sin sexual immorality is? - James

__________________

Unlike you, Trump prays for forgiveness for his sins.

You can't even live up to the oath of ethics.

Keep digging, at your own peril.

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

Democrats, PLEAZE, PLEAZE, PLEASE take the "pastor's" advise and stand with a black power salute.

PLEASE

ROFLMFAO !!!

Commonsense said...

Jesus didn't make me straight. It's part of being human

Well to Christians Jesus is one of the three manifestations of God so in effect hed did make you straight.

some of us have the DNA that makes us gay or straight.

There's no "gay gene" discovered yet and I pray to God there never will be. It would just be one more excuse to abort babies.

Commonsense said...

The problem with Roger is that he's just not a bigot, but that's he's an ignorant bigot.

Commonsense said...

James said...
7:27 through 7:29
Did someone forget to tell Trump how serious a sin sexual immorality is?


Well James, I'm sure that Trump's sexual immorality has caused him a lot of grief in his life.

Just as Roger's sexual immorality has cause him a lot of grief in his life.

Just as your sexual immorality has caused you a lot of grief in your life.

Only diffrence is that Trump has repented and asked for God's forgiveness.

While you and Roger are like Pharisees standing on the temple wall who think they don't need saving.

Anonymous said...



It's a religious interpretation that I think is a justification for bigotry.


of course you do, because this is one of the left's newest hobby horses. think about that for a minute. we americans have enjoyed religious freedom via our first amendment since the founding. the right to gay marriage in one form or another in one state or another hasn't been around nearly as long, but has seemed to have leap-frogged religious liberty well, just, because, shut up.

that's not how this works, alky. liberals don't get to wake up one morning and demand the "right" to some whim, wish, or desire and get to jam it down our collective throats. you assholes are well on your way to the systematic destruction of our culture and along with it our polite society, but every once in a while you need to be reminded that you don't always get your own way by default just...well because, and that there are legitimate opposing views that are protected by laws codified in our constitution.

here's a thought -

stop trolling christian bakers, florists and wedding venue hosts. in virtually ALL of these cases the prospective clients know full well that someone such as this baker is a deeply religious man and this whole thing has been a set-up; an elaborate troll just to fuck with him.

knock it off.

go to an atheist or gay bakery down the street, conduct your commerce, and stop looking for people to fuck with just for your personal amusement. because that's really what you're doing here. you're just being liberal assholes, and we are already ass-deep in liberal assholes in this country.



Jesus didn't make me straight.

he probably didn't make you an insufferable asshole either, but here we are.


Anonymous said...

It’s fashionable for progressive critics to condemn conservative religious-liberty claims as mere pretext for bigotry. Indeed, that was the view of relevant decisionmakers in Phillips’s case. One of the commissioners described his religious-liberty claim as a “despicable piece of rhetoric.”

Justice Kennedy — the judicial father of gay marriage — responded with words that should echo in the public debate:

To describe a man’s faith as “one of the most despicable pieces of rhetoric that people can use” is to disparage his religion in at least two distinct ways: by describing it as despicable, and also by characterizing it as merely rhetorical — something insubstantial and even insincere.

Yet is that not exactly what critics of orthodox religious believers do every day? While there is little doubt that radical academics and pundits will continue to act in bad faith, their counterparts in the state and local governments will now find that their hostility and double standards carry a cost. On that basis alone, Phillips’s victory is broad enough to earn our applause.


https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/06/masterpiece-cakeshop-scotus-decision-broad-enough/

commie said...

Menstral the huge cramp posits that...
that Trump's sexual immorality has caused him a lot of grief in his life.

It got him elected and idiots like you who hate gays and women an excuse to give him a pass......yep......he'll hopefully burn in hell with the rest of the jerks who let his behavior continue...

Commonsense said...

Bill Clinton was elected also. No condemnation from you there.

commie said...

No condemnation from you there.

I did not vote for clinton either time....so fuck you!!!!!

James said...

SELF-RIGHTEOUS COMMENSA:
"While you and Roger are like Pharisees standing on the temple wall who think they don't need saving."

I can assure you that for me that is not so. Your judgmental nature may someday cause you greater grief than you can imagine.

commie said...

Just watched the winningly bigly baker on faux and fiends.....what a disingenuous asshole....you deserve him and trump!!!!! I can understand why no other network has him on.....he is a complete embarrassment and a bigot......oh well!!

James said...

I never had to wake up one morning and say to myself, "Today I have an important decision to make. I have to decide whether I'm going to be attracted to girls or to boys."

No, that decision was made for me. Even as a little boy, I was attracted to little girls. As a matter of fact, I was attracted to them even when I did not want to admit I was. I thought it was sissy or embarrassing for some reason.

When I was in the third grade, there was a little blonde, blue-eyed girl in the second grade that I thought was the loveliest creature I had ever seen. In those days, I was a pale, rather anemic-looking kid, and I knew I was. So whenever I would pass by her classroom, I would pinch my cheeks to get some color in them in case she might see me!

If someone had accosted me about what I was doing, I would have been SO embarrassed to admit I was that attracted to that little girl, but I was, and that was not a decision I ever had to made. It was made for me. I was wired that way.

Others tell us that they are wired in a different way, and we should have understanding and compassion for them.

I once ministered to a young man who was a member of a church I served in California and was dying of AIDS. He told me that the previous pastor had said, "I will not support you," whatever he meant by that, but I visited him in two different hospitals and later at his parents' home where he had gone to die.

He told me of a very special relationship he had with Jesus as his savior, including a reassuring visionary experience he had received.

His dear grandmother and parents and his sister (who happened to be an evangelical pastor) all expressed gratitude for my ministry to that young man and had me do his funeral.

I will humbly stand before God and humanity feeling that I acted rightly.

James said...

I am disgusted and saddened by the language and venom expressed here from all sides.

commie said...

I am disgusted

Well good for you...I am disgusted at the wanton disregard for the rule of law that the sycophants here adore...They think he is a king and do no wrong.....Logic and debate do not sway any of them, so resorting to vulgar terms that you seem to ignore and accept to me is even worse.....calling roger alky and you a molester is abominable, but they keep posting the same trash over and over.....I respond in kind.....oh well, color me surprised but I feel better and hopefully keep them at bay!!! Amazing they give pussy grabbing a pass but Ivanka's anatomy is out of bounds....It's a word......oh well...

Commonsense said...

Well James you said this:
Did someone forget to tell Trump how serious a sin sexual immorality is?

Is that not a judgemental statement full of venom.

And will you not suffer grief for it in the end.

James said...

That ironic rhetorical statement was pretty mild for what is going on here.

But I would emphasize again what I said at 7:06 and 7:34.

commie said...

Is that not a judgemental statement full of venom.

No it supports my tenet you are a bigoted hypocrite in supporting his behavior because of his judge picks and hatred of gays.....IOW's, misplaced ideology over humanity....

Commonsense said...

Dennis is projecting again.

C.H. Truth said...

Even as a little boy, I was attracted to little girls.

Yeah James... and it's well past time to get over that attraction!

(yes James, that's a joke)

Commonsense said...

That ironic rhetorical statement was pretty mild for what is going on here.

That's not exactly a denial. You're just saying that you're not as vicious and judgemental as you think some other posters are.

commie said...

Menstral our cramp making crap up because he dan't refute anything said..
Dennis is projecting again.

That all you have again, loser???? Truth hurts don't it.....LOL

Commonsense said...

Well Dennis that's all I really need.

commie said...

Well cramps, what you really need is a brain....And I can't fix that .....

Well Dennis that's all I really need.


Weak, very weak. no surprise there!!!

.James said...

C.H. Truth said...
JAMES: Even as a little boy, I was attracted to little girls.

C.H. Truth: Yeah James... and it's well past time to get over that attraction!

(yes James, that's a joke)
_________________

james: LOL

I did, Ch,
and without even having to think about it.

By the time I was in the sixth grade,
I was no longer looking at second graders.

James said...

COMMENSA: You're just saying that you're not as vicious and judgemental as you think some other posters are.

JAMES: An opinion I will proudly own.

Commonsense said...

You mean that you're vicious and judgemental?

OK.

James said...

No, that I'm NOT as vicious and judgmental as you and some others here.

Commonsense said...

But you are vicious and judgmental. Correct?

James said...

Actually, I think not. My comment about Trump is not that bad, and was partly intended humorously.

By contrast, when I recently posted the beautiful song, 'The President (Obama) Sang Amazing Grace,' "Loretta" responded by sayings that even the Anti Christ can sing.

Now, I am in strong, firm disagreement with Trump on many things, but I have never called him the Anti Christ.

caliphate4vr said...

But Obumble is or the devil incarnate

James said...

He left the office of president with a Gallup approval rating of 58%.

Trump has never once been above 50%.