Monday, April 13, 2020

More on stay at home orders...

The Criticism of Those States Who Issued No (or “Late”) Stay-at-Home Orders Doesn’t Really Hold Water
All of which is to say: There doesn’t really appear to be much correlation between the implementation of a statewide stay-at-home order and infection or death numbers or rates. Rather, the clearer correlation appears to exist between population density and infection/death numbers and rates — among the states and within each state. (So…wait…you mean this virus is no respecter of state boundaries or laws, but rather, hops from person-to-person more easily in more densely populated areas? Knock me over with a feather!)

So if you read the article, the analysis is basically taking a bunch of Midwestern states that all border one another, comparing the Governors responses and the actual numbers associated with the Covid-19 virus. Based on the numbers,  it would appear that statistically the THEORY that early closure was the key to mitigating the the outbreak may actually be little more than a theory.


This relates back to the argument being made that the difference between the success California and Washington has had versus the problem that New York, New Jersey and Michigan have had....  was that West Coast states were getting ahead of the curve of the virus by shutting down earlier. But in fact, both California and certainly Washington had the virus in their states earlier than most everyone else and technically waited much longer to shut down (in comparison to when other states saw their first cases).

The difference in real time shut down was less than a week between Washington (the first), California (a few days later) New York (almost immediately after California). There is little statistical reason to believe that a matter of a few days would have made the difference between a few hundred deaths and several thousand, especially considering that the virus had been present in Washington and California longer than it had been in any of those other states. Statistically how long a state waited wouldn't be just a flat date, but rather how long they waited from the first reported case, first hospitalization, first death.

By those accounts, New York, New Jersey, Michigan (who saw their first cases in March) all shut down much "earlier" than California or Washington (who saw their first cases in January). To put it bluntly, it took the West Coast States over two months from their first cases to shut down.

  • Washington waited nearly two months from their first known case, and then shut down at 904 confirmed cases and 48 confirmed deaths. (10,500 500 today)
  • California waited nearly two months from their first known case, and then shut down at 971 confirmed cases and 19 confirmed deaths. (23,000 681 today)
  • New York waited 22 days from their first known case, and then shut down at 15,000 confirmed cases and 56 confirmed deaths (189,500 9385 today)
  • Michigan waited 7 days from their first known case, and then shut down at 54 confirmed cases and 0 deaths (24,600 1487 today)
  • New Jersey shut down in waves, with the final closure approximately 20 days from their first known case. They shut down at 2800 and 27 deaths (62000 2350 today).

Based on these objective numbers, Michigan was the most proactive, closing their state one week after their first confirmed case and before they had a single death. Yet, they have more deaths than Washington and California put together, who waited two months from their first cases to close down.

New York has the worst outbreak, but it's hard to argue that waiting just over three weeks from their first known case can be attacked as non-responsive. Not when Washington and California waited two months. 

The truth is that there is no empirical evidence that closing an area earlier has slowed the pace of the virus in comparison to states that waited longer (or in some cases have still not closed down). There is, however, a lot of empirical evidence (and it really should be common sense) that the spread of this virus is happening in areas where the preexisting conditions of the area puts them at risk. The high density populations of New York, New Jersey and cities like Detroit and Chicago put them at a bigger risk than places low population areas like Wyoming, Montana, and the Dakotas. The way these large states and cities have been managed and governed is what made them more susceptible to this sort of virus spread. 

At the end of the day, the difference of  the severity of these outbreaks probably has nothing to do with what different areas of the country "did" but rather what they "are". 
I know this isn't what liberals (and those who believe that we are in control of mother nature) want to hear. But it's likely going to test out to be the factual reality when all is said and done. 

38 comments:

Anonymous said...

This not a major a Major Treat to the People of the US,Dr. Fauci

January 21, 2020.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Treat
LOL

C.H. Truth said...

“This is not a major threat to the people of the United States and this is not something that the citizens of the United States should be worried about right now,” Dr. Fauci told Newsmax’s Greg Kelly on January 21.

Dr. Fauci has backtracked on his original message. He now says the U.S. has yet to receive the worst of the COVID-19 outbreak. He has even encouraged a national shutdown after telling NBC in late February that Americans should go about their normal lifestyles.

Dr. Fauci has been the Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since 1984, serving under every U.S. President since Ronald Reagan.

C.H. Truth said...

FAUCI: Well, we've never had a threat like this and the coordinated response has been, there are a number of adjectives to describe it. Impressive, I think is one of them.

I mean, we're talking about all-hands on-deck is that I, as one of many people on a team, I'm not the only person, since the beginning that we even recognized what this was. I have been devoting almost full time on this -- almost full time.

I'm down at the White House virtually every day with the Taskforce. I'm connected by phone throughout the day and into the night and when I say night, I'm talking twelve, one, two in the morning. I'm not the only one. There's a whole group of us that are doing that. It's every single day.

So I can't imagine that that under any circumstances that anybody could be doing more. I mean, obviously, we're fighting a formidable enemy -- this virus. This virus is a serious issue here.

https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/pence-goes-inside-the-coronavirus-task-force-fauci-reacts-to-claims-trump-is-not-following-the-science

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

These states shut down at ____ confirmed cases*:

WA 904
CA 971
NY 15,000
MI 54
NJ 2,800

These states now have _____ confirmed cases:

WA 10,500
CA 23,000
NY 189,500
MI 24,600
NJ 62,000

These states now have ______ reported deaths:

WA 500
CA 681
NY 9,385
MI 1,487
NJ 3,350
________
*NJ shut down "in waves"

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Seems pretty clear that those states which firmly shut down at a lesser number of cases have done better in terms of both total cases and total deaths.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Ch's link at 11:41 is an article published March 22.
DO read it,
but keep in mind yesterday's Trump tweet: FIRE FAUCI.

C.H. Truth said...

Seems pretty clear that those states which firmly shut down at a lesser number of cases have done better in terms of both total cases and total deaths.

Actually that's not true... Reverend.


Michigan shut down with the least amount of cases and the least amount of deaths and in the shortest period of time after the first reported case.

They have more deaths than Washington and California put together.



Also... explain to me how it took two months from the first cases in California and Washington to get to the point where those states needed to be shut down...

Yet it only took less than three weeks for the East Coast states to go from one reported case to massive deaths.



Objectively... the virus simply moved slower on the west coast while they did almost nothing to mitigate it...

but the virus went from almost nothing to killing hundred and thousands even after these East Coast states shut down.



There is no explanation in the case, Reverend 2 million dead, that ties itself to the shutting down of the states helping mitigate it.

Anonymous said...



but keep in mind yesterday's Trump tweet: FIRE FAUCI.


it was a re-tweet by trump. and if you had actually read the fucking thing instead of asswipe goddard's reporting on it, you'd realize it's no big fucking deal.



Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

Sorry Fake News, it’s all on tape. I banned China long before people spoke up. Thank you @OANN

Quote Tweet

DeAnna Lorraine Flag of United States

@DeAnna4Congress
· 18h

Fauci is now saying that had Trump listened to the medical experts earlier he could've saved more lives.

Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large.

Time to #FireFauci...

6:51 PM · Apr 12, 2020·Twitter for iPhone
34.2K
Retweets
107.4K
Likes


https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1249470237726081030


pederast, you're a fucking moron.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

AS SAID,

Trump Retweets Call for Fauci to Be Fired
April 12, 2020 at 8:05 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 206 Comments

President Trump delivered his first public rebuke of Dr. Anthony Fauci by resharing a tweet that said “Time to #FireFauci.”

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

UPDATE: US Navy sailor assigned to the USS Theodore Roosevelt has died of COVID-19 complications. https://nbcnews.to/2K3wkPU

C.H. Truth said...

Well Reverend liar

If Fauci at this point wants to keep his status as a straight shooter who people trust to tell the truth...

Then he better be able to reconcile his public statements he made back in January and February with what he said to Tapper.

There are only three possibilities.

- That he lied to everyone prior to yesterday.
- That he is playing revisionist historian to make himself look better.
- That Tapper and the media are misrepresenting his response to the gotcha question asked.


If it's the first... and he was out lying to people about what they should be doing, and that he was lying about how well he thought the task force has been responding...

Then he has no credibility and he probably should resign.


If it's the second... and he is trying to "mitigate" any blame for this and revise history from what he stated to saying he meant something else.


Then he still has no credibility left and he should probably resign.


If it's the third... then he should explain himself.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Oh my goodness, Ch. What happened to your previous full throated defenses of Fauci as one who had never disagreed with Trump, when I said he had?


Anonymous said...



pederast,

trump re-tweeted a glaring contradiction that came directly from fauci...


Fauci is now saying that had Trump listened to the medical experts earlier he could've saved more lives.

Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large.



the point, which you're obviously too stupid to grasp is that fauci, like everyone else involved, needs to own his public statements.

and in my opinion he also needs to wise up. all CNN is at this point is one big game of 'gotcha.' and no one associated at any level with the trump administration or the covid response are exempt from the hackery that is CNN. including fauci.



C.H. Truth said...

Oh my goodness, Ch. What happened to your previous full throated defenses of Fauci as one who had never disagreed with Trump, when I said he had?


Well Reverend hoping for two million dead Americans...


I trust that Fauci was telling the truth when he was the voice of the task force. I have listened to Fauci nearly every single day and he has never once made it out that people are not listening to him.


I believe that Tapper played Fauci for a fool with a question that Fauci "should" have been better prepared to answer. It was obvious to anyone listening that Tapper was trying to get him to say something that they could use against Trump.

I don't believe that Fauci said (or meant) what is being stated.


But if it is what some are demanding... then Fauci is a bald face liar who lied to the American public and shouldn't be in charge of anything.

Because objectively Reverend...

Do you want someone who doesn't tell the truth out running this thing?



I have a post scheduled on this that you can read if you are interested. It will explain my overall opinion.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Rat, I made it clear in the past that Fauci had himself been mistaken on the severity of what was coming, but when he saw clearly that he was -- even then he had to resist Trump's attempts to keep him from saying what he then felt HAD to be said.

I told Ch that earlier, too.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

RE 11:44, 11:56 above

Ch SAID:
There is no explanation in the case, Reverend 2 million dead, that ties itself to the shutting down of the states helping mitigate it.
_________

Well, if that's the case, Ch,
let's reopen all the states May 1, as Trump says he wants to do.

We might then get the 2 million dead Navarro warned Trump might eventually happen -- which, by the way, Navarro told him three days before Trump told the press at a task force report:

"When you have fifteen cases -- and within a couple of days it's going to go down to close to zero -- that's a pretty good job we've done."

C.H. Truth said...

Notice how quickly the Reverend changed the subject...

He has no answer for the actual post related to this thread.

He provided an opinion built on an incorrect assumption, which I corrected...


Then he just deflected it with a classic change the subject approach.



Because he cannot explain how it took almost two months for the same virus to make it's way through the west coast (while they did nothing to mitigate it) before the massive spread forced people to react.

But that it took less than three weeks (and in some cases about a week) for that same spread to take place in the heavy metro areas of the East Coast.


He will reject the idea that it is because of population density and a different climate....

Because that flies in the face that this is all about how we can control mother nature with our actions.

People "want" to believe that this massive shut down saved the country, but it may turn out that the effects were very limited in comparison to the preexisting conditions in play.

C.H. Truth said...

So explain it to us, Reverend change the subject when he is losing an argument...

How is it that Michigan (who shut down prior to reporting even one single death) has more dead than California and Washington (who waited about 8 weeks before shutting anything down).

Think about it...

Population of Michigan about 10 million.
Populations of Washington and California about 46 million.


Explain why the amazingly early shut down of Michigan didn't work to mitigate their deaths??

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

I guess Ch didn't read my 12:29 before he posted his 12:29.

Anonymous said...

Lying JamesNewLeaf.

"DO read it, 
but keep in mind yesterday's Trump tweet: FIRE FAUCI."

You did not say retweet

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

April 13 9:42 I posted:

AND HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS?
IS THIS HOW TRUMP LISTENS TO HIS EXPERT SCIENTISTS AND EPIDEMIOLOGISTS?

Trump Retweets Call for Fauci to Be Fired
April 12, 2020 at 8:05 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 202 Comments

President Trump delivered his first public rebuke of Dr. Anthony Fauci by resharing a tweet that said “Time to #FireFauci.”

C.H. Truth said...

I guess Ch didn't read my 12:29

Your 12:29 Post had nothing to do with the subject at hand...

It was an irrelevant and repetitive post about a statement from January.


Please explain how it is that Michigan is doing so poorly given they had probably the best response in the country time wise?

C.H. Truth said...

AND HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS?
IS THIS HOW TRUMP LISTENS TO HIS EXPERT SCIENTISTS AND EPIDEMIOLOGISTS?

Trump Retweets Call for Fauci to Be Fired


Two things Reverend change the subject when you lose an argument...


1) it's a lie. He hasn't called for Fauci to be fired.
2) it's just another change of subject...


Now explain how it is that Washington and California with their enormous combined populations are doing so much better than the East Coast states...

When they both waited somewhere between...

---- Twice as long to eight times as long ---

To go from first reported case to shut down?


Please explain it reverend change the subject because your a coward!

Anonymous said...

Professor Marion Nestle offers a sobering assessment: “That the food system is failing is a given.”

By Tom Levitt"
Huffington Post

The old bat Denise and James wrong again.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Because Trump only retweeted a call for Fauci to be fired, he didn't call for Fauci to be fired?

Good. We will be looking forward to hearing from Dr. Fauci at future task force presentations.
_____

I do not reject the fact that areas with huge populations tend to have bigger coronavirus problems. When you consider the population densities of NY and NJ and Michigan's Detroit area, it is actually surprising that the tolls in NJ and MI are not higher. And I can understand why people want to get free of restrictions.

My IL county has 77 cases and 2 deaths.
My NC father's county has 64 cases and 3 deaths.
My NC sister's county has 114 cases and 4 deaths.

Naturally we begin to wonder whether so strict a shutdown is as necessary for us as it is for the more crowded counties with large city populations.

But to be overhasty with the relaxation of social distancing could lead to problems.

Trump has "expert" advisers representing the economy on the one hand, and health on the other, and they tend to see things differently.

Trump himself has admitted that he is now facing the most difficult decision(s) of his life. It will not help that his experts will strongly disagree.

How do we avoid an economic disaster without contributing to a health disaster, or a health disaster without contributing to an economic disaster?

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Bernie Sanders Endorses Ex-Rival Joe Biden for President
Monday, Apr. 13, 2020 | Updated 11:44 AM PDT
Photo Credit: Getty Images
Bernie Sanders endorsed his former rival Joe Biden for president on Monday in a joint online appearance.

“I am asking all Americans, I’m asking every Democrat, I’m asking every independent, I’m asking a lot of Republicans, to come together in this campaign to support your candidacy, which I endorse,” Sanders said.

The backing is a crucial development for Biden, who must bridge the Democratic Party's ideological divide to unify voters against President Donald Trump in the fall. Biden and Sanders, a leading progressive, clashed throughout the primary over policy issues such as the “Medicare for All” universal health care plan.

The endorsement stands in contrast to the extended 2016 fight between Sanders and Hillary Clinton, who became the nominee that year. Sanders endorsed Clinton, but only after the end of a drawn-out nominating fight and amid a bitter fight over the Democratic platform that extended to the summer convention.

How Democratic Delegates Work, as Explained by Toy Cars
How Democratic Delegates Work, as Explained by Toy Cars

What exactly are delegates, and how do they determine who becomes the Democratic nominee? We emptied our toy box to explain how primaries and caucuses help the Democratic Party select the next presidential nominee. (March 10, 2020 9:22 am)
Sanders did not immediately address Monday whether he would continue to fight for delegates at state conventions around the country or whether he’d simply use his newfound alliance with Biden to influence the nominee and the policy slate that he will present voters.

Appearing in a split screen with Biden, Sanders said there's "no great secret out there that you and I have our differences.”

But he cited ongoing work between the two camps on several policy matters as a reason for the endorsement. And he said the biggest priority was defeating Trump.

“We’ve got to make Trump a one-term president,” Sanders said. “I will do all that I can to make that happen.”

Bernie Sanders Suspends Campaign
Bernie Sanders Suspends Campaign

Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., announced he is suspending his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination. Sanders held an early lead in the race but former Vice President Joe Biden surged past him. (April 8, 2020 12:30 pm)
This is breaking news story. Please check back for updates.

Anonymous said...

Presidential Democrat Nominee Cuomo had a lot of happy talk today.

Anonymous said...

"My IL county has 77 cases and 2 deaths.
My NC father's county has 64 cases and 3 deaths.
My NC sister's county has 114 cases and 4 deaths. "

Yawn.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
C.H. Truth said...

Naturally we begin to wonder whether so strict a shutdown is as necessary for us as it is for the more crowded counties with large city populations.

Naturally...

and if the numbers continue to play out the way that they are currently playing out then "history" will look back on the complete lock down of most of our country as a mistake.

Something I am certain liberals will blame Trump for somehow...


C.H. Truth said...

Trump himself has admitted that he is now facing the most difficult decision(s) of his life. It will not help that his experts will strongly disagree.

Well technically it will not be his decision any more than it was his decision to lock down the states.

But as we speak, the west coast states of Washington, Oregon, an California have agreed to work together in reopening their economies... as they should.

In Washington, the calls for the resumption of residential construction has been overwhelming and it's likely that restrictions will be eased on that section (as they already wear protective masks, gloves, etc).

Caliphate4vr said...

But to be overhasty with the relaxation of social distancing could lead to problems.

Stupid social distancing doesn’t have to be relaxed to open up the economy except for restaurants and bars.

And herd immunity can begin

Anonymous said...

6 Eastern Govenors working to open their States.

James is against it.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Fauci is now saying that had Trump listened to the medical experts earlier he could've saved more lives.

Fauci was telling people on February 29th that there was nothing to worry about and it posed no threat to the US public at large.

, Time to #FireFauci...

Trump retweeted the tweet

Anonymous said...



we've plowed this ground, alky.

tell the nurse it's time for your meds so you can drift off to sleep again.

anonymous said...

And the only one plowed is you RRB as your deranged mind slowly dissolves by alcohol in trumps old fat white ass!!!!!!