Asphyxiation as medically defined is not limited to strangulation or a choke
After all, as even Langenfeld himself confirmed today, the means by which fentanyl kills its victims is by suppression of respiration. That’s just another form of asphyxiation. And we have actual toxicology results to support the fentanyl levels. There’s literally zero evidence of how much pressure the 140-pound Chauvin might have been applying, or not, to the neck of the 230-pound Floyd.
On cross-examination by (of course) Nelson, who explicitly asked if a fentanyl, methamphetamine, or a combination of the two could cause the hypoxia observed by Dr. Landenberg. The answer was, of course, “yes.” Touching upon the state’s apparent line of argument that Floyd’s long history of opioid abuse meant he was somehow immune to fatal overdose, Nelson explicitly asked Landenberg if a history of abuse meant fentanyl can’t kill someone. The answer was, of course, “no.”
This is a fairly important point that seems to be glossed over in the media. One would hope that it is not glossed over in the courtroom. But the cause of death being listed as asphyxiation does not mean that the asphyxiation was not caused by the sort of filling of the lungs that is associated with an Opioid overdose. In other words, without evidence that demands or precludes one or the other, there is no way to know of asphyxiation took place because of some police restraint move or it it was because of a drug overdose.
The ER physician witness yesterday provided the first opinion in direct examination based on what information he said he had at the time of admittance. During cross examination he had to admit that there was no medical basis to rule out that Floyd could have died from a drug overdose. Rather he was simply not provided any information about any drug ingestion when he came to his original conclusion. This is an important distinction.
Nelson is still getting kudos from a variety of legal experts
Several times during cross of Addarondo Nelson made use of a clever gambit I’ve seen him use once or twice on other state’s witnesses, especially those claiming some level of expertise on a relevant issue. When the witness realizes that Nelson was leading them to a conclusion with which they didn’t want to agree, they’d start hedging their testimony—well, I’m not sure, it depends, I don’t know if I would agree with that.
In response, Nelson would suggest that perhaps it would be better to defer that specific question to, say, a use-of-force expert. The witness would readily agree, because they saw this as an escape from the question they didn’t want to be compelled to answer.
What this gambit does rhetorically, however, is substantially undercut the witness’ apparent expertise on the subject being asked about. Hey, look, even they are saying they don’t really know that much about this subject, and we should instead listen to a real use-of-force expert (which, unstated, the defense will be glad to present to all you jurors in a few days).
Not sure how much this is helping, but I certainly see the logic here. I have a feeling that the Police chief opinion will pull a lot of weight even if he is not technically the best expert. As it stands, the State has produced witnesses that seem relatively close to the case (as in they witnessed it) or they have high profile positions. Not sure where they are going with additional expert testimony above and beyond those specifically involved.
But they want to pull in the Police Chief to repute anyone the defense calls. They will call in the supervisor of the Medical Examiner to repute anything he might say that is detrimental to their case. They seem to be going for people of authority, which could lead the jury to believe that they have the best experts (even if they may not be the best experts).
Either way, you play the hand dealt. The prosecution has a lot of people in a lot of high places that have a pretty large stake in securing a conviction. They should and are taking advantage of that. The defense has some real tangible medical evidence that it awful tough to toss aside. One has to believe that they will introduce much of this when they present their case.
85 comments:
That police chief sure tossed chauvin under the bus.
Balls - he did that when he fired all four police officers before any sort of internal investigation or quite obviously any sort of legal investigation was completed.
He succumbed to the mob to help stop the violence. Just as the powers to be are worried about more rioting and destruction if Chauvin is not found guilty of murder.
You are trying to discredit witnesses who make the defendant look guilty. And there is a conspiracy to convict officer Chauvin.
The prosecution has a lot of people in a lot of high places that have a pretty large stake in securing a conviction.
That's the same thing you have been saying for years now.
The Police Chief stated that according to his experience for his career. He entered the police department as a recruit. And advanced to the Chief of The Police department.
It's one of the most difficult tasks by a minority officer in history.
He has credibility is amazing and indisputable.
This is fucking stupid trolling.
He succumbed to the mob to help stop the violence.
I expect that from the racist rodent bastard, but not you
Just as the "powers" to be are worried about more rioting and destruction if Chauvin is not found guilty of murder.
Deep state conspirators are trying to convict officer Chauvin.
Alex Jones has infected your mind Scott.
Black Lives Matter activist Maya Echols, who is also a signed model with IMG Worldwide, warned in a recent Tik-Tok video that “cities will burn” if Police Officer Derek Chauvin is not convicted in the death of drug addict and thief George Floyd.
Echols says, “All hell is going to break loose!”
Maya Echols: “If George Floyd’s murderer is not sentenced just know that all hell is going to break loose. Don’t be surprised when buildings are on fire.”
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/04/cities-will-fire-black-lives-matter-activist-warns-us-cities-will-burn-officer-chauvin-not-convicted-george-floyd-death/
https://twitter.com/i/status/1379401279345205248
Roger...
Did the police chief fire the four cops without any internal investigation or internal hearing?
Yes or no?
It's a simple question. If I am wrong, I am sure you can prove it.
The defense lawyer, Eric Nelson, is now questioning Sgt. Ker Yang, the Minneapolis Police Department's crisis intervention training coordinator, and he is trying to establish that police tactics can sometimes get messy, but they’re still allowed. “They still may be lawful even if they look bad?” Nelson asked. “Yes sir,” Yang responded. Of course, jurors will have to determine whether kneeling on George Floyd’s neck for more than nine minutes was something that just “looked bad” or whether it was unlawful.
He succumbed to the mob to help stop the violence.
That's exactly what he did. He deprived his officers of due process, and he fell back to a de facto racist posture expecting the mob to be appeased.
Pro tip: The BLM mob is NEVER appeased.
The city will burn regardless; conviction OR acquittal.
Alex Jones has infected your mind Scott.
You can drop the Alex Jones bullshit anytime alky, since the only person around here obsessed with him is YOU.
Fucking IDIOT.
Across the country, police departments have fired other officers who were involved.
This is a rare moment in history, I have never seen a police chief testify against the defendant.
I don't know, and neither do you have the answer to your question!
If you say yes or no, you are speculating.
I don't know why he made the decision
You already said.
He succumbed to the mob to help stop the violence.
Why did you say that!
Testimony is focused on how police officers should handle difficult interactions.
The defense is trying to say that he continued to kneel on his neck, because for the crowd was threatening the police officers.
But nobody actually attacked the police officers. They took videos and shouted let him go. They didn't pose a danger to them.
But nobody actually attacked the police officers. They took videos and shouted let him go. They didn't pose a danger to them.
Except that there was no way in hell for the police to know that would not be attacked.
And true to form, while not attacking the officers directly, the fucking animals proceeded to burn large swaths of the city to the fucking ground.
The next witness is Johnny Mercil, a police lieutenant who is currently on medical leave from the Minneapolis Police Department. He is a use-of-force trainer, and was assigned to the Third Precinct, whose station house burned down early in the protests following George Floyd's death last year.
Violent events in other places don't matter on this incident
I literally spit my coffee.
"“We as W.H.O. are saying at this stage we would not like to see the vaccination passport as a requirement for entry or exit because we are not certain at this stage that the vaccine prevents transmission,” W.H.O. spokeswoman Margaret Harris told a news conference in Geneva, Reuters reports."
I am so much better then the Three Socialist Stooges of CUT.
I don't mask 99.9 % of the time, never have.
I will not get the Shots.
I have superior genes and a strong immune system.
But for the cowards , remain afraid, wear two masks ❄
Biden to keep troops for years in Afghanistan, he is a good puppet.
His trainer is saying he used excessive restraints.
He just said that the use of kneeling was not correct
He teaches officers Brazilian jiu jitsu and other hands-on tactics for subduing suspects.
There is a break
Use the least amount of force unless...
Johnny Mercil, a lieutenant with the Minneapolis Police Department, is explaining the use-of-force strategies that he teaches to police officers. His testimony here repeats a similar theme from earlier expert witnesses: When trying to control a subject, officers are trained to “use the lowest level of force possible in order to meet those objectives,”
Am we Hastings just died
He is an expert on the use of restraints
Alcee
GDYAC
He may have exceeded his training
The prosecution is focusing its questions to Mercil on when it is appropriate for a police oficer to use a neck restraint on a suspect, as Derek Chauvin did on George Floyd. When shown a picture of Chauvin pinning Floyd to the ground and asked, “Is this an M.P.D.-trained neck restraint?” the lieutenant responds, “No, sir.”
How does one exceed their training?
THWAP!
Jack Posobiec
https://twitter.com/ScottMGreer/status/1379204127062945794
Two teen girls accused of car-jacking and killing an Asian Uber Eats driver in D.C. 'reach plea deal with prosecutor ensuring they will not be held past the age of 21 nor be placed in a prison facility'
Scott Greer
People who entered the Capitol without permission face tougher penalties than these two murderers. That's anarcho-tyranny for ya
Unequal justice just like what is happening in Minnesota
Johnny Mercil is not the guy you want to bother
He was the trainer of officer Chauvin
Johnny Mercil, a lieutenant with the Minneapolis Police Department, is explaining the use-of-force strategies that he teaches to police officers
You can drop the Alex Jones bullshit anytime alky, since the only person around here obsessed with him is YOU.
I can honestly say Rat... that I have never listened to or read Alex Jones.
Why Roger has to continue to lie would be a mystery if we all didn't know the truth. Some people are dishonest because an honest argument doesn't suit their needs.
He teaches officers Brazilian jiu jitsu and other hands-on tactics for subduing suspects.
THWAP THWAP THWAP THWAP
btw yesterday it was brought up that the restraint may actually have been on the shoulder and not the neck from what i heard...
but what made the initial images so shocking was the black gloves which made it look like Chauvin was restraining while his hands were in his pocket while in fact they were just blending in with his pants.
I only said it once when you said a conspiracy of convict officer Chauvin
Rogers blood lust to get this Officer is clear.
Positional asphyxiation causes breathing problems
Max Abrahms
https://mobile.twitter.com/MaxAbrahms/status/1379427519342993409
A difference between the Jan 6th attack at the Capitol and the one the media is ignoring from last week is that in the ignored one we are 100% sure that the attacker killed a cop.
The media loves to take events and then inflate them to insane proportions if they fit a narrative. Even if it turns out they are false or misleading. Like Russian collusion and George Floyd.
Enemy of the people
The knee on the neck restraint is explained and illustrated in the training handbook.
The prosecution at this point is attempting to prevent the defense from entering the handbook into evidence. The judge might be in agreement?
Would seem appropriate since this is the second witness who has claimed under direct that there is no knee to the neck restraint taught. Of course, the first admitted under cross that the knee to the neck is actually taught, but just not to the "degree" that Chauvin used.
Either way...
Why is this the question?
The only question is whether the knee to the neck killed him or if an Opioid overdose did. The rest seems like red herring.
Why is Lil Schitty rooting for a cop who is a killer????????
Roger was never impartial, he hates all COPS.
I can honestly say Rat... that I have never listened to or read Alex Jones.
Nor have I. Jones landed on my radar a couple years ago when he was publicly de-platformed, and assholes like MSDNC's Ralph Maddow and the alky cheered and swooned in approval.
I'm a free speech/1st amendment absolutist. Jones is a loon, but not one of us should think we have the right to silence him. But that's how the left operates. They demand full compliance and will always leap to censoring & silencing their political opponents.
On a relayed note -
"A person always could choose to avoid the toll bridge or train and instead swim the Charles River or hike the Oregon Trail. But in assessing whether a company exercises substantial market power, what matters is whether the alternatives are comparable. For many of today's digital platforms, nothing is. We will soon have no choice but to address how our legal doctrines apply to highly concentrated, privately owned information infrastructure such as digital platforms."
—Clarence Thomas
Denny...
Looking for a fair trial of a someone who spent 19 years on the force protecting the public.
Not exactly on the side of an arrested 12 times, convicted violent felon, admitted drug addict, who was breaking the law and ingested 3 times the fatal dosage of Fentanyl on the day he died.
But we know where your alliances are, correct?
The man who once stuck a gun in the belly of a pregnant woman to demand she hand over her valuables for drug money is your guy! The guy you believe is the hero here!
Nelson: When handcuffing, officer specifically trained to put knee across trapezoid, routinely trained by MPD both in terms of academy as well as in-service.
Mercil: Situationally, yes.
Nelson: Simply because person is handcuffed, circumstances where you would use that prone weight technique to maintain control of subject.
Mercil: yes.
Nelson: Page 41 of Exhibit 146. Show to witness.
Nelson: Shows photograph of individual showing how to handcuff and knee is across the base of the neck.
Mercil: shin is across the back of the neck.
Nelson: When talking prone handcuffing, this photograph shows placement of knee.
Mercil: Correct.
Nelson: Ultimately, if person handcuffed, and circumstances warranted, officer would be permitted to keep leg there.
Mercil: Yes, but we caution officers to be careful of the neck, to use the shoulder.
Nelson: Exhibit 56, appears to be paramedic checking carotid of Floyd?
Mercil: yes.
Nelson: In your experience, can touch carotid if knee was on carotid?
Mercil: No, sir.
Why Roger has to continue to lie would be a mystery if we all didn't know the truth. Some people are dishonest because an honest argument doesn't suit their needs.
There's nothing special about the alky in this regard. Take a look at any issue, prominent or obscure, and the one constant is that the left MUST lie about it - I suppose to obscure their true goals. And with the media complicit in their efforts, they're free to get away with it every day.
Case in point - when even the WaPo is giving you the full four pinokes on such a prominent issue as the new GA election law, they're basically calling you a fucking liar. And if you have no shame you just don't care. BAMN (By any means necessary) is a thing, and it's a thing for a very good reason.
To continue to kneel upon the neck of the suspect, in a face down position while he is struggling to breathe because of drug abuse could have caused cardiac arrest.
The police officer continued to kneel upon the neck for several minutes after he quit breathing.
The defense is showing different angles of the scene from the same time stamp... showing that from one angle, that Chauvin appears to be across the neck, but from the angle he appears to be further back on the upper shoulder lower neck.
Nelson: Can see Floyd's head, and officer Chauvin's knee between shoulder blades?
Mercil: Yes, sir.
Nelson: Does this appear to be a neck restraint?
Mercil: No sir.
Nelson: A prone hold an officer may apply with his knee?
Mercil: Yes.
Nelson: Talked about taking, holding a person in the prone position, after they have stopped resisting.
Mercil: Yes.
Nelson: Circumstances in your career where you used body weight to hold supsect down for longer than 2-3 seconds.
Mercil: Yes.
Nelson: For 10 minutes?
Mercil: Not sure if for 10 minutes.
Nelson: Possible.
Mercil: Yes, it's possible.
Nelson: Considerations officer has to take into account on using body weight regardless of whether suspect resisting. Sometimes called for EMS, and officer may restrain suspect with body weight awaiting for EMS.
Mercil: yes.
Nelson: You've done that yourself?
mercil: yes.
Nelson: Until EMS arrives.
Mercil: As long as needed to control them, yes.
The defense is laying the groundwork to argue that Derek Chauvin was behaving reasonably when he continued to restrain George Floyd for more than nine minutes, even after he lost consciousness.
If he had started breathing again he may have been a threat. But he didn't ever breathe again.
The defense is having a pretty good morning
Blogger Roger Amick said...
The defense is laying the groundwork to argue that Derek Chauvin was behaving reasonably when he continued to restrain George Floyd for more than nine minutes, even after he lost consciousness.
And for good reason alky.
To you, the ONLY explanation that you'll accept is that Junkie lost consciousness because of the knee on the neck/shoulder, completely dismissing the very real possibility that he lost consciousness because he had enough fentanyl in his system to kill three adults.
This is a position you've held since the day this happened. You've insisted on a murder conviction for Chauvin since day one, and your claims to want to hear all the evidence to make an informed and objective decision on your own is complete fucking BULLSHIT.
The defense is having a pretty good morning
I am curious if the State addresses the different camera angles at any time. Obviously there is no reason to do so with this witness on cross.
The cross is confusing to me.
Mercil has just stated that even he HIMSELF has kept people under restraint until EMT or other back up has arrived to the scene and admitted that a quiet suspect can still become violent even if they seem to be under control.
But under cross, he suggests that if a subject is no longer resisting that a police officer should de-escalate.
This seems like a witness who is being coached to say something under direct (and redirect) but gave away the truth on cross-examination. That macho cop deal got the better of him and he had to admit that he has probably done things much like what Chauvin did.
That guy was not a good witness for the State. Plain and simple.
Johnny Mercil said that the use of force was not authorized.
Except for Johnny Mercil said that the use of force was not authorized. The defense team had a good day so far.
The defense
The fact that Lt. Mercil keeps agreeing with the defense lawyer on this line of questioning could present a problem for the prosecution.
Shut up Jimmy Hitler Sr and kputz and ballsless and Cali. At least Scott is making some sense
The prosecution might make a point that the crowd noisily shouting, was not a good reason to continue to use deadly force on George Floyd's neck compression.
Hmmm, interesting. I've made obly one post on this thread - the first one about the police chief throwing chauvin under the bus. Clearly he had. Does Roger think this observation doesn't make sense? Or is he just ranting without point or direction?
Jimmy Hitler George Floyd is not on trial
The three most important parts of that testimony from a defense standpoint:
1) Getting Mercil to admit that the knee restraint does exist in police training.
2) Getting Mercil to admit that from another angle that the knee appeared further back than originally thought and that a knee to the upper shoulder lower neck is appropriate and not a choke.
3) That the EMT was able to check the carotid artery for a pulse suggesting that the knee was not in fact covering the carotid artery and therefor it was not a "blood choke hold" as previously suggested.
I am curious as to how the prosecution gets around this? Seems sort of damning to their case.
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Sleepy Joe Biden was set to announce Tuesday that he is shaving about two weeks off his May 1 deadline for states to make all adults eligible for coronavirus vaccines.
With states gradually expanding eligibility beyond such priority groups as older people and essential, front-line workers, the president plans to announce that every adult in the U.S. will be eligible by April 19 to be vaccinated, a White House official said.
Myballs said...
Hmmm, interesting. I've made obly one post on this thread - the first one about the police chief throwing chauvin under the bus. Clearly he had. Does Roger think this observation doesn't make sense? Or is he just ranting without point or direction?
Which is one more than I had made.
Alky can’t function
I take that back I did make 1 post
For once we agree.
If only reason for his asphyxiation was his face down horizontal position, may matter because the trainer said the use of knee restraints were unauthorized.
If only reason for his asphyxiation was his face down horizontal position, may matter because the trainer said the use of knee restraints were unauthorized.
His head is to the side, not face down.
There are certain times from certain pictures where it looks like Chauvin has his knee across the side of the neck almost up under the ear, but it looks like for the most part it was further back what appears to be more of an upper shoulder lower neck deal. At least that was the way it was when the EMTs got there.
I suspect that there was probably more direct pressure when they first looked to restrain him and then the knee moved back towards the shoulder as Floyd settled down. Hard to tell, but the new camera angles provide more information than we (as in the community) have been privy to. The media has relied on the most damning of the pictures from the most damning of angles.
"I can honestly say Rat... that I have never listened to or read Alex Jones." CHT
"Nor have I" RRB
I have not.
...the trainer said the use of knee restraints were unauthorized.
Interesting.
Unauthorized, but contained within the official policy & procedure manual.
Let me guess... the trainer is a registered democrat.
"Why Roger has to continue to lie would be a mystery if we all didn't know the truth. Some people are dishonest because an honest argument doesn't suit their needs." CUT
The challenge to Roger is to change his ways and tell the truth.
Officer Nicole Mackenzie, the medical support coordinator for the Minneapolis Police Department. Officer Chauvin may not have followed the procedure.
Stop thinking the media is prejudice
The media has relied on the most damning of the pictures from the most damning of angles.
Chauvin may not have been trained to perform CPR anymore
Blogger Roger Amick said...
Stop thinking the media is prejudice
Or just watch '60 minutes'' latest hit piece, this time on FL Gov. DeSantis, and continue to believe that the mainstream media is a pack of prejudiced, corrupt, biased, and dishonest hacks who truly are the enemy of the people and all-around pieces of shit.
Officer Chauvin may not have followed the procedure.
may not have?
sounds objective.
was she there?
sounds like she was not.
By the way alky, it's always fun watching you grasp subjective straws, desperate as you are to see a situation so factually stacked against you go your way for a change.
This trial may be your moment in the sun, pal. You just might see this one go your way. Not because it should based on the facts, but because it's so racially charged, and those involved don't want to see their city burn again. Chauvin could be offered up as a sacrifice to the savages.
And then the savages will burn the fucker down anyway because that's what they do. It's all they know.
Sohrab Ahmari
https://twitter.com/SohrabAhmari/status/1379259535479738370
I've worked in mainstream media for a decade. I used to see NYT/WaPo/network stories and generally assume they were basically true, even if the outlets made mistakes from time to time (we're all human).
Now I think, "What kind of bullshit are these ideologues pulling on me now?"
FAKE NEWS
Jack Posobiec
https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1379488128470253576
George Floyd's drug dealer just refused to testify because he could be found guilty of 3rd degree murder for selling Floyd the drugs that proximately caused his death
not surprising but haven't heard though I really am not following...
The media has relied on the most damning of the pictures from the most damning of angles.
Well Roger... have you seen pictures in the media that the defense presented where it shows that Chauvin's knee was further back on the shoulder neck area rather than up higher on the neck?
Seems that would have been important pictures for people to see if they were looking to judge the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
MINNEAPOLIS — The EMT who leads the Minneapolis Police Department's emergency medical response training told jurors in the murder trial of Derek Chauvin that officers are trained to call for an ambulance and provide medical aid if a situation is "critical."
"If you don’t have a pulse on a person, you immediately start CPR," officer Nicole Mackenzie said Tuesday. "If it's a critical situation, you have to do both" CPR and call for an ambulance.
Officers who responded to George Floyd did not render medical aid, and Chauvin continued to keep his knee on Floyd's neck for more than two minutes after officers realized Floyd did not have a pulse, according to court records.
Earlier, Minneapolis police Lt. Johnny Mercil, a use-of-force expert, was presented with an image of Chauvin with his knee on Floyd's neck and told jurors the move was not a department-trained neck restraint.
The testimonies come a day after Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo told jurors that Chauvin's restraint of George Floyd "absolutely" violated department policy. He said that the restraint should have stopped "once Mr. Floyd stopped resisting" and "once he was in distress and verbalized it."
I don't watch fox news but I have seen every single picture you claim has been censored by the MSM
Yes because the 9 minutes and twenty nine seconds and again pictures from Google sessions
Yes because the 9 minutes and twenty nine seconds and again pictures from Google sessions
So you are admitting that you saw pictures of Chauvin's knee on the upper back and lower neck (rather than pressing directly on the neck)? But yet you continue to demand it was strangulation?
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