Friday, April 9, 2021

No doubt Doctor Thomas will be ordered to bend over and assume the position after this!

State had a good day yesterday, but seems to be struggling again today

She was supposed to testify that fentanyl overdose is not plausible in this case

Nelson: So again, just kind of taking into consideration, removing certain variables, right, you find a person at home, no struggle with the police, right, and the person doesn’t have a heart problem, yet you find fentanyl and methamphetamine in this person’s system at the levels they are, would you certify this as an overdose ?

Dr. Thomas: Again, in the absence of any of these other realities, yes, I could consider that to be an overdose.

Nelson: And the level of fentanyl in a person — again, in this hypothetical scenario — there are deaths certified as drug overdoses significantly lower than 11 nanograms per milliliter ?

Dr. Thomas: Lower, higher. it’s got a huge range, yes.

Nelson: As low, I believe, as three percent or three nanograms per milliliter?

Dr. Thomas: Yes.

Nelson: So the ingestion of drugs is unique to that individual’s body, right?

Dr. Thomas: Right.

Nelson: I have no further questions.

_____________________________________________________________

Earlier testimony from at least two of the states medical experts suggested that Fentanyl would not be a possible reason for death in the case of Floyd:

  • Doctor "vital signs" suggested that it was impossible to conclude that he had died from an overdose based an a whole slew of variables he observed. 
  • Meanwhile Doctor "charts and graphs" suggested that the levels were too low to have been a fentanyl overdose?


Now the graph provided by the doctor (whose real name is Isenschmit) and touted as proof positive that Floyd did not have enough drugs in his system to kill him is relying on his apparently belief that the jury is clueless as to how to read a chart or what the various averages mean. 

In this case, the number to look at is the median number of 10.00 ng/ml. What that tells us is the half of all Fentanyl deaths occur with 10 ng/ml or less. Floyd had 11 ng/ml as well as other drugs in his system. People have died from as little as 2-3 ng/ml. 

The mean (taking the sum of ng/ml and dividing by the number of cases) can quite obviously be skewed by people who took extremely large amount of Fentanyl and then died. There is no way to prove that it took "exactly" that much to kill them, or if they would have died even with far less in their system. 

Example: 
  • Person one took three pills and died with 3 ng/ml 
  • Person two took seven pills and died with 7 ng/ml
  • Person three took ten pill and died with 10 ng/ml
  • Person three took fifteen pills and died with 15 ng/ml
  • Person four accidently swallow a hundred pills and died with 100 ng/ml

The median in this case would be 10. Meaning it is exactly in the middle. Half died with less and half died with more. But the mean becomes 27 ng/ml because of the one person who accidently swallowed 100 pills. Now obviously someone doesn't accidently swallow 100 pills, but the point remains. We know it didn't really take 100 pills to kill that person, so saying the average amount of Fentanyl needed to kill someone is 27 is not accurate. Everyone else but this one person died from 15 ng/ml or less. 

So I would guess that the mean would be wildly skews higher because the unlikely nature the someone would be taking "exactly" the amount of Fentanyl needed for them to overdose. I would assume that almost everyone takes over that amount. In fact, even the median is likely skewed higher, albeit by a smaller margin.
 
At the end of the day, the theory of a drug overdose lives on. When the defense gets their chance, I am sure they will provide their own experts to push that theory to even higher levels of credibility. 

33 comments:

rrb said...



100 ng/ml?

How do you not throw out that outlier?



Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

The Wall street Journal reports contradicted you


George Floyd died because the police officers restraining him put more strain on his heart than it could handle, according to the chief medical examiner who conducted his autopsy in testimony Friday in the murder trial of Derek Chauvin.

“In my opinion, the law enforcement subdual restraint and neck compression was just more than Mr. Floyd could take by virtue of those heart conditions,” said Andrew Baker, the Hennepin County chief medical examiner and pathologist, who described Mr. Floyd’s heart as somewhat enlarged and limited in its capacity to pump blood.

Dr. Baker said Friday that Mr. Floyd’s death was a homicide, meaning it was caused by another person’s actions. But his opinion differed from medical experts who testified earlier this week that Mr. Floyd died of asphyxia when Mr. Chauvin knelt on his neck and back for more than nine minutes during his May 25 arrest.

The conflicting testimony could help Eric Nelson, Mr. Chauvin’s defense lawyer, in his effort to prove that Mr. Floyd died from a drug overdose and an underlying heart condition.

Still, Dr. Baker said Mr. Floyd’s use of fentanyl and his underlying heart disease played a role in his death, but they weren’t the cause.

“Mr. Floyd’s use of fentanyl did not cause the subdual or neck restraint, his heart disease did not cause the subdual or the neck restraint,” he said, noting the restraint was the cause of death.

I missed up but the two different people didn't contradict each other's testimony under oath today.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/live-chauvin-trial-day-10-chief-medical-examiner-in-the-hot-seat/#more-349993

anonymous said...

Well.....the defense could only introduce hypotheticals after the devastating testimony of both doctors....Defence could not establish that the drugs or heart condition were factors in the killing by the cop!!!!!! Sorry sports....you must be watching a different proceeding if this thread is the best you can do!!!!!! BWAAAAAAPAAAAAA!!!!!

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

The examination found no drugs in his stomach Scott

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

He relies heavily on heavily edited and political biased articles Instead of thinking for himself anymore

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

The medical examiner who conducted George Floyd’s autopsy testified on Friday that while Mr. Floyd’s heart disease and drug use contributed to his death, it was police officers’ compression of his neck and restraint of his body that were the primary causes.


Reasonable doubt??????????

Wait until the prosecution runs the 19 minutes and twenty nine seconds.

C.H. Truth said...

The medical examiner who conducted George Floyd’s autopsy testified on Friday that while Mr. Floyd’s heart disease and drug use contributed to his death, it was police officers’ compression of his neck and restraint of his body that were the primary causes.

Keep in mind, Roger...

These are State witnesses. They are not supposed to be providing the defense with any reasonable doubt. The reasonable doubt is supposed to come when the defense presents their case.

The fact that so many of their own witnesses have undermined their basic premises and contradicted each other is unusual for a prosecution case that has this many high profile people involved, this many high profile witnesses and this amount of time to prepare.

The prosecution is supposed to win every day that they present the case. They need to close with so much overwhelming belief that they have proven it all beyond a reasonable doubt that the defense will have no way to catch up.

I think if we are being honest, this might actually be close contest if the jury went to deliberate right now. I am not sure that at least some of these jurors would balk at a guilty verdict on either count of murder. The state might be closer to a manslaughter conviction right now... but do you really feel that all twelve witnesses (who are supposed to assume innocence) have been convinced beyond all reasonable doubt?

anonymous said...

Keep in mind, Roger...


Lil Schitty....you also said a cop who ONLY weighty 145 lbs kneeling on your neck was no big deal!!!!!!! BWAAAAAAAAA!!! Still don't see you being waterboarded or testing how that feels!!!!!! Sad.... There is great doubt that the defense will prevail!!!!!!

C.H. Truth said...

Hey Roger...

Again. What sources are you using?

By sources, I don't mean the NYT, WaPo, WSJ, or any mainstream media that is doing little more than just providing highlights and quotes from what they believed was the important aspects.

I mean what legal experts with experience in police cases like this, or even legal experts with any legal experience who are providing in depth coverage that includes what "both sides" are doing? Where is the coverage of what these people are saying under cross-examination?

Hint - if you are not reading anything about the questions from Nelson or the key points the defense is hitting, then your source is not making any analysis. They are regurgitating the prosecution highlights.

C.H. Truth said...

Roger:

From your WSJ article:

But his opinion differed from medical experts who testified earlier this week that Mr. Floyd died of asphyxia when Mr. Chauvin knelt on his neck and back for more than nine minutes during his May 25 arrest.

The conflicting testimony could help Eric Nelson, Mr. Chauvin’s defense lawyer, in his effort to prove that Mr. Floyd died from a drug overdose and an underlying heart condition.



Your astute analysis of this:

But the two different people didn't contradict each other's testimony under oath today.


Seems to me that the WSJ is suggesting that they did contradict each other?

Anonymous said...

So , Floyd had heart problems.

That is a fact or opinion?

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Though multiple contributing factors may have contributed to Mr. Floyd’s death, Dr. Baker said he believed that the primary cause of death was the same as he wrote in his initial autopsy: “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.” In simpler terms, Dr. Baker said that Mr. Floyd would not have died were if not for the actions of Mr. Chauvin. Still, he said that the compounding factors, including heart disease, played a role as well. Dr. Baker agreed with a statement from the defense that methamphetamine was hard on the heart; a toxicology report found methamphetamine and fentanyl in Mr. Floyd’s system, and pill fragments found at the scene contained the same drugs. Dr. Baker said he found no pill fragments in Mr. Floyd’s stomach.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Scott only believes right wing media websites.

Fox news has changed the county, because it created an alternate reality universe.

It's what we have to deal with because of the first President rights.

Like I said that I look at both sides, because I try to be objective, instead to my own political views but you don't do that anymore.




Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Jurors are not lawyers. So their minds are more emotional than lawyers.


Sewing doubt on this brutal event is very difficult.

C.H. Truth said...

Roger...

We all get that you hate everyone in the media who doesn't write NTY, HuffPost, Vanity Fair, or WaPo.

But I am asking where you are getting "your" analysis that you say you are getting. You claim you are reading up from both sides, and I would like to take a peak at the analysis you are reading that is seeing things differently.

I have no interest in MSM story "highlights" as they offer nearly zero analysis. Talking about the actual lawyers and legal analysts you are reading and reviewing?

It's always good to have all sides of perception. Wouldn't you agree?

C.H. Truth said...

Jurors are not lawyers. So their minds are more emotional than lawyers.

No Roger...

Jurors are people just like everyone else. They are required to look at the evidence, follow the judges jury instructions, and they will hash this out together.

Some of them might be entirely emotional and irrational because of emotion (like you are most of the time). Others will be smart reasonable people who will judge this based entirely on evidence.


Nobody liked what they saw on the video. As I pointed out (as late in the game as today) - I don't personally care for Chauvin and probably would never sit down and have a beer with him. But that doesn't mean I cannot be objective and provide him with the assumption of innocence.

Keep in mind that they went through nearly 100 jurist to get to 14. Every person who had too much emotional attachment to this case either way was tossed by the Judge, and each side used their strikes to get rid of those people they saw as dangerous to their cause.

What is left appears to be a fairly eclectic group, but also most of them appeared to be fairly reasonable people who all sides believed could maintain the necessary objectively and assumptions required.



If you believe that the prosecution only need to "keep playing the tape" as you keep arguing, I think you are wildly mistaken. George Zimmerman, O.J. Simpson, and many others were found not-guilty in spite of early media and early judgement demanding their guilt.

Only the jury really understands what the jury is seeing. When most people are getting tidbits and highlights that might present 5% of what the jury saw and probably not the 5% that mattered. Most people are probably not going to have a clue how they might judge it.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

the root cause was the restraint used by then-Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

irrational because of emotion (like you are most of the time). From a guy who has never condemned himself.

Cooooo cooooo

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Step 10


Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

I used that to restore my sanity. I have admitted in public when I was wrong about something.


You really should give it a shot.

It won't hurt, it will make a better person.

The trial is scheduled for Monday, then the fun begins.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I have read lawyers and legal analysts from both sides, you don't.

You have no right to condemn me Scott.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Your favorite bullhorn said what I actually saw live.

The prosecution had a good day.

That said, the state got done what it needed to get done today with its expert witnesses, who unambiguously told the jury that Floyd’s death was the direct result of the police restraint used to hold him for EMS, period, and that nothing else mattered. Not Floyd’s fentanyl level, not Floyd’s substantial co-morbidities. Not Floyd’s poorly made decision to fight four police officers against lawful arrest. Or heart conditions he didn't mention.

So, as would normally be expected at this point in the trial, but which has gone missing up to now, the state had a good day today.

That’s not to say the defense did poorly, within the constraints already described.

I will note that Defense Counsel Eric Nelson definitely appeared tired today, he was hoarse, and clearing his throat. Could he be wearing down? With any luck tomorrow, Friday, will be an early day and he’ll have the weekend to get some R&R. I trust he’ll be back to form on Monday.

It must be said that getting handed new state exhibits at night, as occurred to him just last night, after being in court all day, and knowing that review of those exhibits will be necessary for cross-examination of witnesses today, certainly can’t be making his job any easier.

----- He looked like he was tired and again a little nervous about sewing doubt.

I actually watched it. One advantage of being retired!

C.H. Truth said...

I have read lawyers and legal analysts from both sides, you don't.

Then tell us who you read?

You keep saying you are reading legal analysis but you only post crap from the MSM that is not analysis.

I've asked you multiple times to link this analysis and you haven't.

Btw... that C&P from L-I was from yesterday's testimony (Thursday). Even I stated that the State had a good day yesterday. Not sure how you believe that is condemning to anyone.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

In the final moments of his life, George Floyd was so desperate for air that he resorted to trying to use his fingers, knuckles, and shoulder muscles to position himself to breathe while being pinned down by former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin, a medical expert testified Thursday.

Dr. Martin Tobin, a pulmonary and critical medicine doctor with 45 years of experience, was called on by the prosecution as an outside expert witness to testify about Floyd's cause of death, which is at the center of Chauvin's murder trial in Minneapolis.

Prosecutors say that Chauvin's knee on Floyd's neck contributed to his death. The defense argues that Floyd's use of illicit drugs and underlying medical conditions were the key factors.

Tobin testified that Floyd died due to a low level of oxygen caused by the combination of being handcuffed in the prone position on the ground and Chauvin's left knee on his neck and right knee on his back, compromising his ability to breathe.

The jury was shown an image from an officer's body camera video in which Floyd's knuckles are seen pressed against the tire of the squad car while Chauvin's knees are on his neck and back.

 post crap from the MSM that is not analysis.

Because they are part of the deep state conspiracy to destroy conservative Republicans.

Indy is right.

But I keep fucking with you Scott

It's amusing.


Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Dr. Andrew Baker, who performed the official autopsy of George Floyd, said that fentanyl and heart disease had contributed to his death, but that the officers’ actions were the main cause.


Despite Other Factors, Police Caused Floyd’s Death, Medical Examiner Says https://nyti.ms/3dTRv5o

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

https://news.yahoo.com/drugs-heart-disease-contributed-to-but-didnt-cause-george-floyds-death-medical-examiner-testifies-222039921.html

Dr. Andrew Baker, the medical examiner who performed the autopsy on George Floyd, testified Friday that while heart disease and drugs had contributed to Floyd’...

C.H. Truth said...

Roger...

Lydia was right about you and it's why you are living by yourself in a nursing home.

Indy is talking to himself and his five followers on Twitter. He is a shell of his former self. I doubt anyone here gives a shit about his opinion, which of course is hypothetical, because I doubt anyone here believes that he confides in you either way. He would probably be aghast if he knew you were linking yourself to him.

And that it the second time you linked the Thursday recap from L-I as if it is new or as if it was different from what I wrote. Even I wrote that Thursday was good for the prosecution.

But if you actually went down to the comments, you will see that Andrew Branca was adding comments throughout the day. Obviously you didn't read them.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

You have been though a divorce and you know how ugly it is.

I never ever ever ever hit her. I'm not a violent person. Alternate I'm a big strong guy I never got into fights or arrested or anything like that.

I read Branca. Geez your getting confused

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

John Boehner in a new memoir derides today’s Republican Party as unrecognizable to traditional conservatives like himself, held hostage by both former president Donald Trump and by a conservative media echo chamber that is based on creating “chaos” for its own financial needs.
The former House speaker said that he was happy to be away from Washington on Jan. 20, 2017, when Trump was sworn in as president and completed his hostile takeover of the party to which the Ohio Republican had dedicated decades of his life.
“That was fine by me because I’m not sure I belonged to the Republican Party he created,” Boehner writes in “On the House: A Washington Memoir,” set to be released Tuesday.
In the epilogue, Boehner flatly states that he is glad to be out of elective politics given the party’s sharp distancing from its onetime heroes.
“I don’t even think I could get elected in today’s Republican Party anyway. I don’t think Ronald Reagan could either,” he writes in the book, a full copy of which was obtained by The Washington Post.
The memoir, coming 5 1/2 years after he left Congress, serves as a rollicking, foul-mouthed recounting of Boehner’s 25 years on Capitol Hill, as well as his thoughts on the past, present and future of the GOP. Although he never held office during the Trump years, Boehner sets the stage for how the Republican Party ended up with the former real estate developer turned reality TV star as its standard-bearer.
[House Speaker John Boehner to resign at end of October]
Originally finished well before the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol, as Congress certified President Biden’s victory, Boehner rewrote portions of the book to forcefully blame Trump for what he called “a low point for our country” that left him on the verge of tears.

Ronald Reagan would be a RINO if he was still alive.

Republicans used to be a conservative party of Abraham Lincoln and several other, but Trump has turned it into a cult classic. The new Gallup's poll should scare the shit out of you but Rasmussen is your choice

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

THAT DOCTOR'S STATEMENT THAT CH/SCOTTIE VALUES SO MUCH UP AT THE TOP OF THIS THREAD GOES A LOT LIKE THIS:

If I had found Mr. Floyd alone in his locked room with no sign that anyone had done anything to him like putting a knee on his neck to suffocate him, or any other thing that might kill him, then yes, I would have certified that he died of the fentanyl in his system.

LAUGHABLE. KNEE SLAPPING LAUGHABLE.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Do you recall telling the county attorney's office that had you found Mr. Floyd under different circumstances, you would have determined this to be a fentanyl overdose?

So I don't recall specifically what I told the county attorney, but it almost certainly went something like this: Had Mr. Floyd been home alone in his locked residence with no evidence of trauma, and the only autopsy finding was that fentanyl level, then yes, I would certify his death as due to fentanyl toxicity.

and the only autopsy finding dO

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

omit the last garbled line

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Except for the garbled line, that was a transcript of what was said.