It is a basic undeniable fact that how you see this trial is going to be based almost entirely on what information you choose to give weight to and what information you tend to discount. Obviously there are a ton of people who are paying attention to what the witnesses say under direct and then pretty much falling asleep for cross. When several witness say the same thing (the "magic words" according to Branca) - then this can lead some people into believing it to be more credible. On the flip side, others might see this as the witnesses being coached and provided talking points.
 |
| Did we believe this prosecution witness during A Few Good Men? |
In my opinion the difference depends almost entirely how well those talking points hold up under cross. If they all hold up under cross, then likely it makes those opinions more credible. If they don't hold up, then it sounds more like rhetoric. This, of course, is the reason we allow cross examination of witnesses and why it so important to take that into consideration.
Branca obviously seems to put much more emphasis on what is happening on cross than many others watching the trial. Some might suggest that he is being a cheerleader for the defense? Perhaps he will suddenly become more interested in direct when the defense comes to bat, and be more dismissive to the cross. Maybe. Because I assume that many who have been sleeping through cross-examination for the first two weeks will be wide awake during cross examination once the defense starts calling witnesses. Suddenly ever slip up or every misspeak will be deemed proof positive that the entire witness testimony should be tossed aside as irrelevant.
If I were a betting man, I would bet that while Nelson has focused his cross largely on the facts at hand, the prosecution will focus cross largely on attempts to undermine the creditability of the witnesses, rathe than the credibility of their testimony. Just a hunch here, but I believe that will be the hand that they will be dealt.
As far as Friday's testimony, Branca pointed out that the first witness (Thomas) was pretty much a duplicate of Baker, relying entirely on Baker's own reports to form a similar conclusion . In fact, Branca seemed puzzled by what this witness brought to the table. From a strategic standpoint I would offer that this was a chance to have a friendly witness to review the same information and provide testimony, because the State could not really count on Baker to be as friendly (and he wasn't).
I will quibble a little with Branca's assertion that both witness saw the cause of death as asphyxia, as Baker's Autopsy clearly calls it cardiopulmonary arrest. This is a difference with a huge distinction. They may have both testified to a similar chain of events, but ultimately asphyxia is where you stop breathing first, where-as an arrest is where your heart stops first. Might seem irrelevant to some, but from a pure medical standpoint it makes a difference.
If Nelson is smart, he will try to show the jury that prosecutions witnesses all said asphyxia, whereas his medical experts will all say it was an arrest. While this would appear to be a he-said she-said argument, the tie breaker goes to the only official objective medical examiner (Baker) who will have already agreed with the defense with his autopsy. Enough to provide reasonable doubt to a jury that Floyd was "asphyxiated to death"? Well that would be the goal.
Read the Branca article and focus on where he shows how Nelson got both Thomas and Baker to admit under oath that they have both signed death certificates where the cause of death were complications from heart disease or drug overdose using the same medical measurements found in Floyd. It's rather technical, but when two pathologists admit that people with the same conditions are declared dead all the time from these conditions (absent a police restraint) - it's difficult to continue to argue that it is virtually impossible that Floyd himself could not have died from these same causes.
129 comments:
Branca does a nice job of saying that the state has to rely on pure emotion and not the facts to secure the conviction that assholes like the alky declared was required the day Junkie overdosed.
Keep in mind, the state really has to prove two different claims to arrive at criminal misconduct on the part of Chauvin in the death of Floyd.
But I see many in the media reporting as if that’s all the state has to do, is prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin’s conduct was a significant contributory cause of Floyd’s death. If that were correct, a conviction would seem at the very least highly possible—after all, the truth is almost certainly that Floyd died not of any single cause but of multiple forces racing together to take his life—his profound heart disease, his dangerous hypertension, his deadly-levels of fentanyl complicated by methamphetamine, his decision to forcibly resist the efforts of four police officers to make his lawful arrest. But also, of course, that force used by police, including the subdual restraint.
Surely it’s not hard to imagine that the subdual restraint was a significant contributory cause of Floyd’s death—at least, it could have been, and a reasonable juror might conclude it was, and that it was proven so beyond a reasonable doubt.
Does that get us to a conviction?
No, because there’s a second condition that must also be met in order for that conduct that may have made a significant contribution to Floyd’s death to be a crime—the conduct itself must in some manner be legally wrongful. If the conduct was lawful, it cannot be the basis for criminal liability.
Some simple analogies should illustrate this point.
If you’re driving your car down the street in a safe and lawful manner, and a pedestrian unexpectedly steps in front of your vehicle and is struck and killed, you certainly made a significant contribution to that pedestrian’s death, but you haven’t committed a crime because your conduct in driving in a safe and lawful manner was not wrongful.
If a surgeon is desperately operating to save the life of a patient on his table, and the patient dies of a combination of their grave illness and the physiological stress of being opened up for surgery, certainly the opening up of the patient made a significant contribution to that patient’s death, but the surgeon hasn’t committed a crime because his conduct in performing surgery was not wrongful.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/live-chauvin-trial-day-11-has-state-eliminated-reasonable-doubt-as-case-nears-end/#more-350317
somehow deleted from the first comment -
First, the state has to prove that Chauvin’s conduct was a significant contributory cause of Floyd’s death—that would be sufficient for the third-degree murder charge. Even the other charges do not require that Chauvin intentionally killed Floyd. Apparently not even the prosecution believes this was an act of intentional RACISTPOLICEMURDER!!! Or we would see an intentional killing charge in this case, and we do not.
Rich: As being pushed into car, through car, onto pavement, concluded didn't see any active cardiac issues.
Let's say he was having arrythmia, originating in heart, often have normal heart, instantly dizzy or pass out, didn't see any indications that was happening, didn't hear him complain of dizziness or fluttering. No indicators of low blood pressure or anything else abnormal with the heart.
Blackwell: Opinion as cardiologist of restraint on ground by Chauvin?
Rich: He was restrained in a life-threatening manner, specifically he was on the ground in the prone position, handcuffed behind back, knee on back of neck, knee on back of upper torso or shoulder, hands pushing handcuffed hands further up, knee compressing buttocks or upper thighs, lower extremities pinned to ground. Initial observation is what is position he is being subjected to.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/live-chauvin-trial-day-11-has-state-eliminated-reasonable-doubt-as-case-nears-end/
Scott, he's making it difficult to prove that a pre existing system caused his death.
The cause of death is critical to provide any reasonable doubt against Officer Chauvin.
Race is not being considered about this particular case.
No cardiac problems existed before the restraints began by officer Chauvin
Rich: He was restrained in a life-threatening manner, specifically he was on the ground in the prone position, handcuffed behind back, knee on back of neck, knee on back of upper torso or shoulder, hands pushing handcuffed hands further up, knee compressing buttocks or upper thighs, lower extremities pinned to ground. Initial observation is what is position he is being subjected to.
Are they?
As Branca suggested... when Doctor Thomas was met with a scientific study that shows the prone position was in fact safe and that in Canada, that position has been used over 3000 times without a single fatality.
The response from the doctor was confusion and the suggestion that she never saw the study.
The redirect from the State was to ask Doctor Thomas if George Floyd was Canadian...
As if there is a difference between whether or not the same prone condition kills people depended on nationality.
Blackwell: Able to tell if any evidence Floyd had ever had heart attack?
Rich: No.
Blackwell: Ischemia?
Rich: Reduction in blood flow to any organ of body, leads to insufficient delivery of oxygen.
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3 minutes ago
Blackwell: Excluded coronary artery disease as cause of death?
Rich: Yes, with a high degree of medical certainty.
Blackwell: Would have expected platelets if heart attack, didn't see those. What else saw?
Rich: Heart muscle itself, not show any evidence of any injury at all, if would see if a silent heart attack. Some years ago a mini heart attack, would see saar tissue, no evidence of heart attack, pathologist did a good job of describing the endocardium, inner most lining of heart, most susceptible part of heart to cardiac injury. Smallest of heart attacks originate there. Not only described as normal and smooth and glistening, completely normal finding.
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4 minutes ago
Blackwell: Autopsy report, what looking for there.
Rich: Looked at autopsy report first, then medical records and videos, and then back to autopsy. Looking first for everything. Major focus as cardiologist was everything related to the heart.
What was most important what I didn't find. Heart architecturally looked normal. Had description of coronary artery disease, was notable, hadn't carried that diagnosis. Didn't find it unusual, because coronary artery disease is so common. Most of us in room have it. Any evidence that Floyd could have had heart attack based on autopsy, looked at arteries around heart, composition, also any platelets or clotting factors. which is what would be there if heart attack. Didn't see any of those. None of the arteries were totally blocked off, which is what happens in a heart attack.
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7 minutes ago
Blackwell: Did Floyd die a sudden death?
Rich: Died a gradual death, not a classic sudden death in how you're putting it in that context. Where literally fine one moment, and dead the next. Sometimes semantics in this, but Floyd did have cardiopulmonary arrest, but no evidence of sudden cardiac arrest from fibrillation or other means.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/live-chauvin-trial-day-11-has-state-eliminated-reasonable-doubt-as-case-nears-end/
The fentanyl intoxication didn't play a role in his death.
Doctor Rich
No cardiac problems existed before the restraints began by officer Chauvin
Want to rethink that?
n other words, had Floyd been found dead at home and autopsy revealed the 75% to 90% occlusion of his three major coronary arteries, would it have been reasonable for a medical examiner to attribute cause of death to that heart condition? Yes.
You’ve signed thousands of death certificates listing cause of death as atherosclerotic disease in patients with similar levels of occlusion as Floyd? Yes.
You’ve signed death certificates listing cause of death as hypertensive cardiomegalopathy in patients have a similar degree of enlarged heart as Floyd? Yes.
Did you tell investigators when interviewed that cardiovascular disease was a significant contributor to Floyd’s death? Yes.
This is a State's witness explaining that based on Floyd's enlarged heart and clogged arteries that he has signed THOUSANDS of death certificate claiming that was the main cause of death. In each instance, some level of stress was introduced that ultimately led to the death, but the underlying factors were seen as the cause.
When someone gets stressed out and has a heart attack, the doctors do not generally demand that the stress was the cause of death. In fact, I would offer that 9999 out of 10,000 times that someone dies from an arrest with these sorts of underlying factors, that the "cause of stress" was never listed as part of the cause of death.
Blackwell: Meth?
Rich: No substantive role at all. All considering, very low level of meth, so context of case, relatively low level of meth, in context of anything else, very confident that low degree of meth was not what was triggering this profound cardiopulmonary arrest and PEA arrest.
Blackwell: Opinion to reasonable degree of medical certainty as to whether death was preventable?
Rich: Yes, I do.
[!!!!]
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3 minutes ago
Rich: Opiate overdose, usually extremely lethargic, often unarousable. Wake up, fall back asleep. Not talking, if talking slurred speech. Saw all the opposite with Floyd, he was alert, awake, conversant, he was walking, and yet according to the tox report he had this degree of fentanyl in system. Just looking at the clinical story didn't see any signs or symptoms of fentanyl overdose.
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4 minutes ago
Blackwell: What role fentanyl in death?
Rich: As far as I can tell, no evidence to suggest a fentanyl overdose caused Floyd's death.
Blackwell: Occasionally have to care for patients with opioid addiction?
Rich: Yes.
Blackwell: So you conclude fentanyl played no role in Floyd death. Why?
Rich: Appeared to me that FLoyd, acknowledged frequent chronic user, likely developed a high degree of tolerance, one ER visit, told them he was fearful, substance abuse, took 8 percocet, no side effects, watched him a while, then discharged him. High tolerance.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/live-chauvin-trial-day-11-has-state-eliminated-reasonable-doubt-as-case-nears-end/
Blogger Roger Amick said...
The fentanyl intoxication didn't play a role in his death.
Doctor Rich
If the good doctor had arrived at the trial with any credibility, he shall leave with none.
Junkie's fentanyl level was THREE TIMES THE LETHAL LIMIT.
Oh and alky?
You don't need to plagiarize every word of testimony from Professor Jacobson's website. In court your copy/paste bullshit would get you labeled "non-responsive" as a witness.
Imbecile.
We can look it up ourselves.
So now state on denial of car as cause of odeath.
Rich: Several junctures, first of course was to not subject him to that initial prone restraint positioning, that is first and foremost. Not the case, he would not have died.
Second, when in that subdual and restraint position, and he was stating he can't breath, and he was getting weaker in speech, one moment in video where I heard an officer say I think he's passing out. That would have been an opportunity to quickly relieve him from that position from not getting enough oxygen, to recovery position, bring in oxygen and get rid of carbon dioxide, When signs worsening, re-positioning I think would have saved his life.
Blackwell: Meth?
Rich: No substantive role at all. All considering, very low level of meth, so context of case, relatively low level of meth, in context of anything else, very confident that low degree of meth was not what was triggering this profound cardiopulmonary arrest and PEA arrest.
Blackwell: Opinion to reasonable degree of medical certainty as to whether death was preventable?
Rich: Yes, I do.
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/live-chauvin-trial-day-11-has-state-eliminated-reasonable-doubt-as-case-nears-end/
Scott Attorney Andrew Branca for Law of Self Defense is not a medical expert. Her opinions are not medical evidence. Compared to Doctor Rich
Andrew Branca is MALE alky, you fucking half-wit.
This is odd testimony. Sounds like the eact same thing Tobin said.
It's like the state brought forward witnesses. Then more witnesses (of theirs) contradicted their original witnesses, so they are calling a rebuttal witness to re-contradict the previous witnesses who contradicted the first witnesses?
Tobin was considered their first good witness, but Baker really disagreed with him. I am not an attorney, but Branca questions why this isn't considered "cumulative" at this point. Certainly cumulative is allowed, but it's also supposed to be restricted.
More to the point, it sounds like this guy is new to the witness list. Why is the state allowed to just call repeat witnesses this late in the game?
Oh... and why would they "need to" if they are doing so well?
"I believe that Mr. George Floyd's death was absolutely preventable," Rich testified Monday.
Rich testified that he believes Floyd's cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest caused by low oxygen levels. Those oxygen levels, he said as have others before him, "were induced by the prone restraint and positional asphyxia that he was subjected to."
Further, the doctor said, "I can state with a high degree of medical certainty that George Floyd did not die from a cardiac event and he did not die from an overdose."
Rich said he has watched bystander and other video from the scene and saw no evidence in Floyd's behavior or appearance that he was having difficulty with his heart until be pinned on the pavement by Chauvin and two other officers.
He had been stricken in connection from ongoing heart condition, he would immediately fall unconcious, Rich said.
In Floyd's case, the doctor said, low oxygen sent him into cardiopulmonary arrest "much more gradually and slowly. ... His speech [was] starting to become less forceful ... until his speech became absent and his muscle movements were absent."
The doctor added that his review of autopsy records also led him to conclude that Floyd did not suffer a heart attack on May 25 or at any other time in his life.
Rich went to say that despite seeing coronary artery blockage in Floyd's heart, the doctor said he saw nothing in the medical records to suggest that played a role in the death.
Prosecutor Jerry Blackwell turned his questioning to Floyd's illicit drug use, and Rich echoed what many earlier witnesses told the jury: "I see no evidence to suggest that a fentanyl overdose caused Mr. Floyd's death," said Rich who treats patients who have used fentanyl.
The doctor dismissed just as firmly any impact methamphetamine had on Floyd's fate, saying the drug "no substantive role" given that where was "a very relative low level of methamphetamine in his system."
Prevention measures that would have helped included "not subjecting him to that prone restraint" in the first place, relieving Floyd from that position and administering CPR once another officer said no pulse was detected.
Blackwell wrapped up by asking Rich whether Floyd have survived his encounter with police if not for his 9 minutes and 29 seconds on restraint on the pavement. "Yes, I believe he would have lived."
Roger...
Have you already declared that Baker and his Autopsy is bullshit and that he also should be charged with accessory to murder for providing testimony that might have harmed the State's case?
Just curious?
WOW ROGER!!!
A witness actually said FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THIS TRIAL that Floyd was killed because he was held on the pavement for 9 minutes!
Earth shattering! Why has the prosecution waited this long to call someone to verify that?
Oh wait... they have already called like 15 witnesses to say just that.
I guess this is nothing new, then?
Yawn.....
He issued a statement a few days after the original report was released.
Upon further examination of the evidence he concluded that George Floyd was murdered. Quit taking out of context.
Just because you don't like the prosecution's decisions is irrelevant as usual bs.
Roger...
Let's stick with what Baker stated during the trial... not what you "suggest" he stated after.
I mean it could be explained you a thousand times, and you would still not quite be bright enough to understand the difference between homicide and murder from a medical standpoint.
This is why you could not be a jury. Not smart enough to follow the facts.
I use both sides
George Floyd’s Death Was ‘Absolutely Preventable,’ Cardiologist Testifies https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/04/12/us/derek-chauvin-trial/
And
https://legalinsurrection.com/2021/04/live-chauvin-trial-day-11-has-state-eliminated-reasonable-doubt-as-case-nears-end/
Fucking liar I know the difference between murder charges of first second and manslaughter one and two
Indy is right and you're getting worse every day
Funny how as soon as Nelson starts Cross...
Roger stops cutting and pasting and changes the subject.
Almost as if he refused to acknowledge cross examination at all?
On cross examination, Derek Chauvin's lawyer is hitting the drug issue again. Dr. Jonathan Rich agrees there is no such thing as a safe dose of methamphetamine bought off the street.
He is under cross examination right now asshole
Re-direct by Blackwell of Dr. Rich
Blackwell: you were asked about blockage, is that correct terminology re: Floyd.
Rich: Blockage is complete blockage, with Floyd I would use narrowing.
Share
2 minutes ago
Nelson: Last question, after lungs stop, is it possible they continue to respire.
Rich: Can't say with certainty, sometimes will hear them take one or two extra breaths, not sure of mechanism, for short period of time.
Nelson: Up to a minute?
Rich: If heart completely stopped, several seconds, would not expect minutes.
That's it for cross.
Funny how as soon as Nelson starts Cross...
Roger stops cutting and pasting and changes the subject.
Almost as if he refused to acknowledge cross examination at all?
Shove it up your ass Scott
Re-direct by Blackwell of Dr. Rich
Blackwell: you were asked about blockage, is that correct terminology re: Floyd.
Rich: Blockage is complete blockage, with Floyd I would use narrowing.
Share
2 minutes ago
Nelson: Last question, after lungs stop, is it possible they continue to respire.
Rich: Can't say with certainty, sometimes will hear them take one or two extra breaths, not sure of mechanism, for short period of time.
Nelson: Up to a minute?
Rich: If heart completely stopped, several seconds, would not expect minutes.
That's it for cross.
The defense attorney tried to get him to admit heart failure or drug abuse he said.
Re-cross of Rich by Nelson
Nelson: Asked about all those other co-morbitities, and you answered relative to the HBP, but when you combine a lot of factors, agree a lot of things happenign at same time.
Rich: Yes.
Nelson: In combination, paraganglioma, increased fight or flight, HBP, narrowing, all those things could cause death even if no restraint.
Rich: Unlikley paraganglioma releasing adrenaline.
Nelson: Take that out of it, struggle, HBP, drugs, could have resulted in death even without the prone restraint.
Rich: I found no evidence to support that.
He didn't hedge his response and said I found no evidence to support that.
Lunch time
Scott Johnson, the prosecution had a great day of providing reasonable doubt about the cause of death.
The defense has to provide reasonable doubt of intent, especially if the judge allows the evidence of his history of violent arrests.
Roger
The point isn't that anyone wanted you to cut and paste the cross. It's just that you only seem interested in the direct?
but let's see if I am mistaken?
What did you get out of Nelson's cross examination?
the cause of death by a preexisting medical and drug related death.
Scott Johnson, the prosecution had a great day of providing reasonable doubt about the cause of death by a preexisting medical and drug related death.
The defense has been saying the drugs were the cause of death, and his enlarged heart condition.
The doctor Rich said no evidence of that
Scott Johnson, the prosecution had a great day of providing reasonable doubt about the cause of death.
You still don’t get it. The prosecution doesn’t to prove reasonable doubt they must prove definitively
THWAP!!
Scott Johnson, the prosecution had a great day of providing reasonable doubt about the cause of death.
Well then... that is great for the defense!
Reasonable doubt is all Nelson needs !!!!!
Funny, but somehow you seem to think that the fact that how he died remains unsettled (even prior to the defense presenting a case) - is a good thing for the prosecution.
In spite of the fact that the prosecution needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin (and not other factors) was the overriding reason why he died.
What is this... the fourth or fifth medical witness to repeat what the prosecution is stating and yet, based on cross examinations and competing testimony from the Hennepin County Medical Examiner...
Roger still thing there is a reasonable doubt as to why Floyd died?
Roger...
Serious question.
Given studies that show that 3000 healthy individuals were placed in the exact same prone position that supposedly killed Floyd... and yet none of them died.
Are you going to tell us (with a straight face) that the fact that he had:
- measured blood pressure over 200 (at the top end)
- arteries that were blocked beween 75%-90%
(something both pathologists claim is the cause of death in thousands of cases)
- an enlarged heart
- he had a lethal amount of Fentanyl in his system
- he had other drugs like Meth in his system
That none of that was the difference between Floyd and 3000 other healthy people who did not die while restrained in the same position?
Please don't cut and paste anything.
Just tell us why those 3000 people lived and Floyd died under the same circumstances... where the reason is not health related?
I thought the part about how when someone develops a blockage of arteries that our heart (being an amazing thing) starts to develop more arteries to assist was a heartwarming story.
But it then begs the question why... if this amazing reconstruction of our coronary system is happening... did George Floyd have a blood pressure reading well over 200 at the top end?
Your gibberish I'm ignoring .
The prosecution provided conclusive evidence of death by Officer Chauvin.
Not a drug overdose or pre existing cardiac disease. The doctor Rich said his heart was in quite good condition.
The only reason he died was asphyxiation caused by police officer Chauvin.
The prosecution provided conclusive evidence of death by Officer Chauvin.
You just cannot provide any reasoning why it was not any of the other factors or why an otherwise safe restraint just happened to become murder in this case... not even the tiniest bit of slight reasoning.
I got it. You were convinced before the trial started.
Why bother even pretending at this point?
and btw... if you want to suggest that there are others who went in with the assumption he was innocent! Have at it.
We are supposed to!!
and btw... if you want to suggest that there are others who went in with the assumption he was innocent! Have at it.
We are supposed to!!
The presumption of innocence is paramount to the foundation of our justice system. ALL criminal cases begin from that basic premise.
Except for the emotionally hyper-ventilating, pearl clutching, liberal "smart set."
They had Chauvin GUILTY the day Junkie overdosed.
You assume assume assume assume troll squad asshole.
I did not believe that he was guilty before the trial.
The prosecution has provided substantial evidence of death by police officer Chauvin. The defense attorney walked away when Doctor Rich refused to say that drug overdose caused his death or a preexisting condition .
The first witness called Monday was Dr. Jonathan Rich, a medical expert in cardiology from Northwestern Memorial Hospital in the Chicago area, who the prosecution hopes to counter defense contentions that Floyd died from health problems and illicit drug use.
Watch live: Derek Chauvin trial recessed until 1:30 p.m.As defense prepares to call witnesses, will Derek Chauvin take the stand?
"I believe that Mr. George Floyd's death was absolutely preventable," Rich testified Monday.
Rich testified that he believes Floyd's cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest caused by low oxygen levels. Those oxygen levels, he said as have others before him, "were induced by the prone restraint and positional asphyxia that he was subjected to."
Further, the doctor said, "I can state with a high degree of medical certainty that George Floyd did not die from a cardiac event and he did not die from an overdose."
Rich said he has watched bystander and other video from the scene and saw no evidence in Floyd's behavior or appearance that he was having difficulty with his heart until be pinned on the pavement by Chauvin and two other officers.
He had been stricken in connection from ongoing heart condition, he would immediately fall unconscious, Rich said.
In Floyd's case, the doctor said, low oxygen sent him into cardiopulmonary arrest "much more gradually and slowly. ... His speech [was] starting to become less forceful ... until his speech became absent and his muscle movements were absent."
The doctor added that his review of autopsy records also led him to conclude that Floyd did not suffer a heart attack on May 25 or at any other time in his life.
The doctor Rich said his heart was in quite good condition.
75% to 90% blocked is "good condition?"
A cardiologist friend of mine would beg to differ.
Col. Jessup speaking on behalf of the alky -
"You WANT Chauvin to be guilty of murder. You NEED Chauvin to be guilty of murder."
Fucking drunken fucking HACK.
https://m.startribune.com/medical-expert-opens-3rd-week-of-chauvin-trial-testimony-george-floyd-s-death-absolutely-preventable/600044978/
I did not believe that he was guilty before the trial.
Then why did you want Chauvin brought up on MUDER charges the day Junkie croaked???
This trial is not the most important thing in the universe.
"Biden’s Support from Democrats Is Sky High"
says Taegan Goddard.
"Trump's Support from Republicans Is Not"
says JamesNewLeaf.
Scott, seriously the case of death was caused by asphyxiation induced by Officer Chauvin.
The defense folded.
The prosecution will provide one more person today.
The trick is to prove intent beyond a reasonable doubt.
If they provide reasonable doubt on intent, I don't know what the jurors will decide.
This trial is not the most important thing in the universe.
But this is the thread topic. Stay on it or move back to the Sunday funnies.
The doctor added that his review of autopsy records also led him to conclude that Floyd did not suffer a heart attack on May 25 or at any other time in his life.
Your opinions are irrelevant because of your anger disorder condition.
CEO Pay Surged During Pandemic
Wall Street Journal:
“Median pay for the chief executives of more than 300 of the biggest U.S. public companies reached
$13.7 million last year, up from
$12.8 million for the same companies a year earlier
and on track for a record.
“Compensation jumped for some executives at battered companies. At Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings Ltd. — which recorded a $4 billion loss last year after sailings stopped and revenue fell 80% — CEO Frank Del Rio’s pay doubled to $36.4 million, in part with bonuses tied to a three-year contract extension.”
_______
They should be taxed at a TREMENDOUS rate to benefit America's ailing middle classes.
YOU PREDICTED THAT PROGRESSIVES WOULD RUN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
IT AIN'T HAPPENING.
QUITE THE OPPOSITE,
THEY'RE THREATENING YOU.
Progressives [cleverly] Play an Inside Game
According to BLOOMBERG:
“Leading progressives like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez had a choice after they won election in 2018 and expanded their ranks in 2020:
challenge Democratic leaders from the sidelines,
or get in the game.
“Now their decision to play by Congress’ rules
is giving them clout in a government under unified Democratic control with President Joe Biden.
“Members of Representative Ocasio-Cortez’s so-called Squad are
taking leadership roles in the House
and building experience on Capitol Hill,
turning them into not just ideological purists
but also strategic legislators.
"They’re gently pushing a bolder Democratic strategy
and meeting regularly with White House aides,
bringing liberal dreams like a
$15 federal minimum wage
and a
permanent child tax credit within reach.”
AMEN!
GO FOR IT, SMART PROGRESSIVES!
Dr. Jonathan Rich, a cardiologist called to testify in the trial of Derek Chauvin, said on Monday that George Floyd’s heart was not the main cause of his death. He also ruled out a drug overdose.
“Mr. George Floyd died from a cardio pulmonary arrest,” Dr. Rich said. “It was caused by low oxygen levels” induced by the position that “he was subjected to.”
It was an observation that Dr. Rich repeated: that the way the police officers restrained Mr. Floyd led to his asphyxiation. “He was trying to get enough oxygen and because of the position that he was subjected to, the heart thus did not have enough oxygen,” he said.
Dr. Rich said that part of his clinical work involves reviewing evidence to determine why patients had died.
LOL @ the alky with the creamed corn smile...
"You WANT Chauvin to be guilty of murder. You NEED Chauvin to be guilty of murder."
Sorry Roger.
"Roger AmickApril 11, 2021 at 10:13 AM
Not Funnies
My brother Ronald Amick is in the hospital with the virus and pneumonia. He is over 80"
Are you rushing to be by his side?
ReplyDelete
Roger AmickApril 11, 2021 at 3:49 PM
He's ok
Reply
KansasDemocrat April 11, 2021 at 4:36 PM
Then why the Drama, Queen Roger?
You can't travel .
Well Roger...
As always, I tend to look at evidence. You tend to look at opinion... but only the opinion that agrees with your line.
The 75%-90% artery blockage is factual evidence.
The evidence shows that people die from that every day.
It's an "opinion" that Floyd didn't.
It's a fact that Floyd had extremely high blood pressure. It's a fact that people with extremely high blood pressure die as Floyd did. That is al objective evidence.
It's an "opinion" that it didn't have anything to do with Floyd's death.
It's a fact (and therefor evidence) that Floyd had a enlarged heart.
It's an "opinion" that it didn't have anything to do with Floyd's death.
It's an evidentiary fact that Floyd had meth and a lethal amount of Fentanyl in his system. It's a fact that this amount kills people every day.
it's an "opinion" that it had nothing to do with Floyd's death.
Lastly... the actual official Hennepin county autopsy with the official cause of death provides that all of these factors played a part in the death of George Floyd. That was an objective autopsy based on the examination of the body and the toxicology reports.
Which does involve opinion. But so far the only opinion that is not solicited for purposes of this trial.
And not too coincidently, the only "opinion" you "CHOOSE" to reject.
But hey.. I promise you this Roger.
You will reject EVERY opinion of the defense witnesses out of hand, if you already have not preemptively rejected them.
Peter-puffer Buttigieg lied.
Mr. Broke-it Biden latest $2.2 bill does not create 19 million new jobs.
The evidence was provided by a highly respected and qualified doctor disagreed with you Scott
You are a self proclaimed medical expert. Based upon right wing websites, I saw exactly what you said on the Insurrection page.
I base my opinions on experts not right wing lawyers.
But hey.. I promise you this Roger.
You will reject EVERY opinion of the defense witnesses out of hand, if you already have not preemptively rejected them.
The alky would've felt right at home at Salem MA in 1692.
Off topic but it's horrible
The suburban Minneapolis police officer who fatally shot a 20-year-old unarmed Black man during a traffic stop Sunday apparently meant to fire a Taser but instead made an “accidental discharge” from her gun, the police chief said Monday.
Less than 24 hours after a female officer in the Brooklyn Center Police Department shot and killed Daunte Wright, Police Chief Tim Gannon played an unedited clip of police body camera video showing the fatal incident for the media.
The video, which was played at a news conference, shows two officers approach the vehicle — one on each side. The third officer approaches later as the two attempt to handcuff Wright and he struggles. The third officer threatens that Wright that she will tase him before firing.
Immediately thereafter she is heard saying, “Holy s---, I shot him,” apparently realizing that she had fired her service weapon instead of her Taser.
Gannon described it as an “accidental discharge that resulted in the tragic death of Mr. Wright.”
The suburban Minneapolis community was quiet but on edge Monday following grief-filled protests over the shooting gave way to clashes with heavily-armed law enforcement, break-ins at several local businesses and a 6 a.m. curfew.
News of Wright’s death, who is Black, prompted fresh outcry over police use of force in the Minneapolis area where residents are already weary from a string of incidents where Black people have been killed during interactions with police; just ten miles away, the highly-scrutinized trial is underway of ex-Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin who faces murder charges for the 2020 killing of George Floyd.
She said she made a mistake under stress .
She was fired but I don't know if she should be prosecuted.
The defense lawyer asked a couple questions and the Doctor Rich said that he didn't die of drug abuse or heart failure.
He said thanks and the defense team was denied the request to compel his friend who was in the car with George Floyd that day.
Floyd's brother is testifying now.
and the Doctor Rich said that he didn't die of drug abuse or heart failure.
With 75-90% coronary artery blockage and triple the lethal amount of fentanyl in his system.
And you believe that shit because you MUST to arrive at your pre-determined GUILTY desire.
HACK, HACK, HACK...
Leading progressives like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez had a choice after they won election in 2018 and expanded their ranks in 2020:
YOU LOST SEATS IN THE HOUSE HOW IS THAT EXPANDING YOUR RANKS?
STUPD FUCKING OLD MAN
This is why no one reads your stupid copy and pastes, you have ZEO critical skills
You wish you were with the KKK was lynching negroes in the late 1800s
Roger...
The underlying evidence is the medical examination and the toxicology report. Everyone else is providing an opinion about them.
I promise you that the defense will have highly respected pathologists, criminologist, toxicologist, pulmonary experts etc....
What they will tell you will be pretty much the opposite of what the prosecution witnesses will tell you.
More to the point, what the defense witnesses tell you will be 100% in line with the underlying medical reports and will offer that Floyd is not the exception here and that the underlying view of the medical examiner (that Floyd's health, drugs, and own behavior) substantially led to a death that otherwise would not have occurred with a healthy cooperative suspect.
How will your brain wrap itself around all of that?
*Zero. Don’t want the pedantic pederast jumping in
Blogger Roger Amick said...
You wish you were with the KKK was lynching negroes in the late 1800s
Oh no alky.
Unlike George Wallace and the KKK, I was never a DEMOCRAT.
Now, I could be persuaded to become a democrat, say, on my death bed. So I could continue to VOTE long after I'm gone.
LOL.
THWAP!!!
YOU LOST SEATS IN THE HOUSE HOW IS THAT EXPANDING YOUR RANKS?
STUPD FUCKING OLD MAN
LOL.
Democrats confront fragile majorities as Congress returns with big plans.
“Last week, Democratic Rep. Alcee Hastings of Florida died at 84. This week, Republican Rep.-elect Julia Letlow of Louisiana is expected to be sworn in, cutting Democrats’ edge to 218-212. That means Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., could afford to lose no more than two Democratic votes to pass a bill without Republican support. The 50-50 split in the Senate is already as slim as it gets, testing Democrats’ resolve to stick together against unified Republican opposition to most of Biden’s agenda, including the sweeping $2 trillion infrastructure package he rolled out March 31.”
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democrats-confront-fragile-majorities-as-congress-returns-with-big-plans/ar-BB1fyGsw?ocid=BingNews
https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/443685/
235 Donks in 2018 elections down to 218 is expanding to pedo.
He doesn’t know that what he’s reading is designed to manipulate his fetid head
The Republicans became the dixiecrat party in 1967.
But history is a too much difficult task for the racist rodent bastard
If the Prosecution has proven their case...
Why are they spending their last moments calling another medical examiner and another use of force expert? I thought they had that all wrapped up in a pretty bow?
Seems to me that they are not very confident of what their previous witnesses had stated, so they are attempting to basically call rebuttal witnesses to rebut their own experts?
Update. Your prayers are working! He's doing quite well right now. Thanks for your prayers.
He will be released from the hospital tomorrow!
Your prayers have been unbelievably effective for my brother's life!
Unlike the bone spur coward he served two deployments in the Vietnam War
Scott, seriously they might have a problem with intent. Excessive force may not work for the jurors.
DumbleafJane.
"“Leading progressives like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez had a choice after they won election in 2018 and expanded their ranks in 2020"
As Cali pointed out , she lost seats.
List her bills she wrote and passed, and have been signed into law.
False allegations are proof of insanity.
On the flip side, others might see this as the witnesses being coached and provided talking points.
Astute observation, Roger...
Since they really haven't called a single witness that has provided any evidence of intent at all. Not that another medical expert or use of force expert does that.
They need to prove felony assault to get to second degree murder and depending on future rulings, the third degree murder might not be relevant. That could be the real problem here.
Jury comes back with a questionable third degree murder verdict, the MSC rules that third degree is not relevant to this sort of situation (the case is different, but the precedent would stand for this case) and then Chauvin appeals and get off.
Keeping in mind that the Judge originally said 3rd degree was off the table as not relevant and on appeal a court "remanded back" telling them to consider waiting for a final appeal to the other case.
But even third degree requires proof that they understood that their actions were dangerous - which in a manner is impossible if you believe Chauvin at least "thought" he was following proper procedures.
The fact that use of force experts are saying he did... might push a manslaughter charge (negligence), which still carries a smaller degree of intent (knowing his actions were risky).
I personally don't see what another "instruction" or use of force "expert" will do for the prosecution. Seems like they just are trying to flood the jury with repetitive testimony.
I especially think it's less effective to have brought in another person from another State. First California and then Florida. Makes me wonder why they could not have found three experts from Minnesota.
All of this could potentially blow up when/if the defense to call the police officers who are on their witness list. These will be people who will actually be on the ground, in these situations, living them, and having to make those split second decisions. They will probably testify to using the same sorts of restraints in similar situations and not having anyone die.
Will the jury be more impressed with "experts" reading from a manual or "cops" who are the ones on the ground, living the life?
Minnesota law.
A peace officer shall not use deadly force against a person based on the danger the person poses to self if an objectively reasonable officer would believe, based on the totality of the circumstances known to the officer at the time and without the benefit of hindsight, that the person does not pose a threat of death or great bodily harm to the peace officer or to another under the threat.
The person who is testifying now about excessive restraints.
Because he had two other officers, a reasonable officer may have known that his other officers were able to control him.
But that's my opinion and again the guy said that because Floyd refused to remain in the car because of claustrophobia,the use of force was excessive force.
He just said that when Floyd was handcuffed and on his knees, the officer Chauvin used excessive force when he pushed him face down on the street
Second degree manslaughter or murder in the second degree. But I will wait until I see a lawyers proof.
He said that once he was restrained by handcuffs and pinned down and the threat was not necessary to continue the restraint for 9 minutes and twenty five seconds.
He said that when a person is face down and laying on his chest, kneeling on the back side of his neck, the neck is like a broken bridge between his nose and his back.
Blogger Roger Amick said...
The Republicans became the dixiecrat party in 1967.
But history is a too much difficult task for the racist rodent bastard
Would, you like me to clean your clock on this particular lie AGAIN? alky?
THWAP!!!
Fuck, you never learn the lesson.
LOL
the neck is like a broken bridge between his nose and his back.
Some broken bridge. Zero evidence of trauma to the neck are according to the autopsy.
The OFFICIAL autopsy. Not the BLM-paid for version.
Positional asphyxia may have caused his death of the lack of oxygen.
Telling the jury, repeatedly, may convince the jury of excessive restraints caused asphyxiation and again his death of lack of oxygen.
I'm not going to the websites right now.
I'm looking at it like a juror.
Neck AREA
Seems like they just are trying to flood the jury with repetitive testimony.
That's it.
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."
- Joseph Goebbels
kneeling on the back side of his neck may not have had any physical evidence of bending his neck and restricting his breathing tube.
I'm laughing at the racist rodent bastard Jimmy Hitler KKK lynching bigot.
Scott watching the videos over and over again and again and. May remove any doubt.
His last breaths on earth are heartbreaking.
The Tape actually set doubt.
Add on the "testimony" and "physical evidence" , doubt exists.
Roger, can you and I agree on one point.
You believe that evidence must be followed ?
The defense is starting
Blogger Roger Amick said...
kneeling on the back side of his neck may not have had any physical evidence of bending his neck and restricting his breathing tube.
Can't keep your bullshit straight, eh alky?
You've insisted for weeks that Junkie was strangled. Strangled with NO evidence of neck trauma at all.
LOL.
HACK.
This person's testimony - in a nutshell!
Stutters. Two different questions. One is what does officer rely on, and how does that factor into officers analysis?
Yes, officers, generally rely on their training, would hope that's the case.
And that also factors into analysis.
No. Not assessing if officer satisfied training standards, I'm whether officer satisfied generally acceptable standards. I don't care if officer did what was trained to do. I'm looking at national standards.
This is basically an admission that prosecutors realize that defense will prove that Chauvin was following training and did what he was trained to do.
The out of state "expert"
Is saying that Chauvin is guilty of violating "national standards" even if he was following training.
That is a bad statement to make IMHO.
"You've insisted for weeks that Junkie was strangled. Strangled with NO evidence of neck trauma at all."
REV
Roger should agree on this point.
The evidence must be followed.
Can he bring himself to say so, we shall see.
His 80 brother is in the hospital.
Very Serious condition.
Alky should travel to be by his side.
Witness now claims he was not aware that Chauvin and his partner were responding as a Code 3 backup. (Meaning they were responding to a highly dangerous situation).
The out of state expert believes that they apparently should have known that a 6'6" 250 lb man who two officers could not get into the back of a car by themselves was not a threat?
When dispatchers basically told them he was?
So this guy is saying... I don't care what the dispatcher says or what their training told them to do... they didn't follow what "I" believe they should have done?
Oppsie Daisy.
"
The out of state "expert" (Rookie mistake, by the prosecution).
And
"I'm looking at national standards."
There are no such thing as a "National Standard".
Why is this guy testifying regarding the behavior of Mpls Police officer if he is not there to talk about Mpls training, standards or behavior?
Nelson: How frequently described in materials you have reviewed, officer can use amount of force that is greater than the force being used by suspect to overcome that resistance.
Are you asking me about MPD training materials specifically?
Nelson: Yes.
Prosecutor, objection, beyond scope.
So the guy being brought to testify that Chauvin did not properly do is job is not allowed to talk about his actual training or procedures for "HIS JOB" because that is outside the scope of the witness?
Great witness!
The defense is trying to sew doubt and its not making much sense yet.
The dispatcher remakes are??? Relevant. He is trying to prove that the officer Chauvin knew how dangerous Floyd was. And the crowd size and it was mostly children and women.
Wow!!!
Reasonable minds can disagree.
On this point, no.
So sergeant stiger, who said it was reasonable to use prone, you would disagree with him
I disagree, I think putting osmeone prone, already handcuffed, prone used to handcuff, hobble, put him on knees, put him on side, if stopped there, no quibble.
So previous state's witness not only "wrong" to say that prone position should be used, but that apparently Sergeant Stiger has an "unreasonable" mind for saying so.
So I am exactly right. State using a third "use of force" witness to rebut the opinions of their first two.
Wow... I mean just wow!
But Roger sucks it up....
like a dog drinking from a bowl....
lap, lap, lap....
OH MY FUCKING GOD!!!
This guy wrote an Opinion piece for the Washington Post that talked about how to use the knee across the shoulder and neck!
You wrote, officers might need to hold someone down in prone, but should do so by putting shin across upper back and not the neck.
Objection, herarsay.
Overruled.
It was his book, how could it be hearsay?
His response?
Putting knee across neck except in absolutely rare circumstances is unreasonable use of force. As I reviewed more materials, some of the opinions I discuss in bottom in that op-ed changed, but not this, knee across the neck inappropriate.
great, but everyone agrees that Chauvin had it across the shoulders!
Mr. Stoughton walked the jury through many of the decisions the police made as videos of the arrest played from different angles. Mr. Chauvin’s defense attorney, Eric J. Nelson, challenged Mr. Stoughton’s account during cross-examination, arguing that the evidence showed the situation kept escalating and the officers were in danger.
But you gotta love that his opinion has changed since he wrote an ed-op on this subject. Apparently things he used to think were okay are no longer okay.
y Eugene Robinson
April 12 at 12:37 PM PDT
After hearing in such clinical, heartbreaking, infuriating detail about George Floyd’s final agonies, I want to believe justice is possible in the Derek Chauvin trial. I want to believe the jurors heard what I heard and felt what I feel. I want to allow myself to hope for it. But a part of me holds back.
The police officers who beat Rodney King to a pulp were acquitted. The self-appointed vigilante who shot Trayvon Martin to death was acquitted. The police officer who killed Philando Castile after a routine traffic stop — just miles from the Minneapolis intersection where Floyd died — was acquitted.
It feels risky to have any confidence that this time the outcome will be different, even though it feels as if it should be. It’s not just that the prosecutors seeking to convict Chauvin of murder have presented what seems to me an overwhelming case. This trial and the context in which it’s taking place are different from the other proceedings that led to such shattering disappointments.
Never that I can recall, in all the attempts to hold police accountable for unjustified killings of African Americans, have we heard such damning testimony from the highest levels of the police department in question. Minneapolis Police Chief Medaria Arradondo told the jury last week that Chauvin, once he had Floyd in the prone position, should have quickly released the pressure he was applying to Floyd’s neck and back — rather than kneeling on Floyd for more than nine minutes.
“To continue to apply that level of force to a person proned out, handcuffed behind their back — that in no way, shape or form is anything that is by policy,” Arradondo testified. “It is not part of our training. And it is certainly not part of our ethics or our values.”
Other officers took the stand to attest that Chauvin had never been trained to put his knee on any suspect’s neck. The “thin blue line” solidarity that we’ve come to expect is present in this case, but in a way that excludes Chauvin. The only consensus we’ve seen thus far among police officers is that what Chauvin did was obviously, tragically, unambiguously wrong.
Police officers, including an expert witness on use of force from the Los Angeles Police Department, also blew holes in the likely defense argument that Chauvin was distracted or even threatened by the onlookers who watched and recorded Floyd’s death. Surveillance video proves that there was no angry mob on the scene. Instead, a handful of horrified bystanders obeyed the command to keep their distance — even as they implored Chauvin to relent because they feared they were watching a man being killed before their eyes.
Some of the most excruciating testimony has come from medical experts who described, in agonizing detail, the nature of Floyd’s death. Martin Tobin, a Loyola University Medical Center pulmonologist and expert on the mechanics of breathing, had the jurors examine their own necks to identify the anatomical features he was describing: the hypopharynx toward the front, the nuchal ligament in the back.
For me, the most searing moments of the trial thus far came when Tobin used video footage to show how Floyd, his neck and chest compressed by Chauvin’s weight, struggled to breathe — how he desperately tried to use his right hand to push against the pavement or the officers’ squad car to create space for his lungs to expand. And then Tobin showed the moment when Floyd’s leg lifted in an involuntary spasm — an anoxic seizure — marking the lack of oxygen to the brain. Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd’s neck for at least two minutes after learning he had no pulse.
I’ve been a journalist my entire adult life. I am good at viewing tragedy with detachment because that is my job. But as I watched Tobin’s testimony, I had to wipe tears from my eyes.
Floyd’s death is fully documented on video recorded from multiple angles: the onlookers’ cellphones, the officers’ body cameras, a surveillance camera across the street. All the jurors have to do is believe their own eyes and ears. I should be able to expect that they will do so. I should at least be able to hope they will.
But hope still feels dangerous.
Eminent expert after eminent expert has explained why Floyd’s heart disease and his history of opioid abuse did not cause his death. But Chauvin’s defense has yet to make its case, which will surely try to paint Floyd as a junkie and a thug, a bad hombre who either deserved the treatment Chauvin gave him or would have dropped dead anyway from heart disease and drug use.
I want to believe jurors will see Floyd simply, and fully, as a man. Too often, that has been too much to hope for.
Yes this is fake news new but CNN made some sense. Here comes another " drinking from the fake news deep state of.
The defense was struggling today.
Linkedin
LIVE COVERAGE
AFTER GEORGE FLOYD
Live Blog / Derek Chauvin trial: Live updates on George Floyd's death
Get Derek Chauvin trial live updates and news on George Floyd's death. Watch the trial livestream as witnesses provide testimony to the jury in the murder trial.
Updated April 12, 2021, 1:43 PM PDT
Testimony in Derek Chauvin's murder trial in the death of George Floyd continued Monday with testimony from Floyd's brother Philonise Floyd, a cardiologist and a law professor who specializes in use of force. The prosecution is expected to rest its case early in the week.
Philonise Floyd, who testified as "spark of life" witness, remembered his brother as a "leader in the household." He said George Floyd always made sure his siblings went to school on time and loved to work out and play sports.
Live Blog
SEE NEW POSTS
Ben Kesslen
57m ago / 1:43 PM PDT
Prosecution's final expert walks jury through specific timeline of Floyd's death
The prosecution called Seth Stoughton, a law professor, as its last witness, using his expertise to guide the jury through a timeline of George Floyd's last moments, beginning when Derek Chauvin arrived on scene.
Stoughton, a former police officer who now studies policing and use of force, gave his opinion on how the officers involved in Floyd's death, including Chauvin, acted in accordance with standard police protocol. He repeatedly testified as to what a "reasonable officer" would have done.
"Both the knee across Mr. Floyd's neck and the prone restraint were unreasonable, excessive and contrary to generally accepted police practices," Stoughton said. "No reasonable officer would have believed that was an appropriate, acceptable or reasonable use of force."
He said there was no need to put Floyd in a prone restraint and that Floyd did not present a threat proportional to the officers' response. Stoughton also testified that Chauvin was twice asked to roll Floyd onto his side by another officer.
The testimony was another chance for the prosecution to show the jury video footage from Floyd's last minutes, where he begs for his life and says "I can't breathe" over and over — at least 27 times by Stoughton's count.
The professor also testified that someone who has passed out can not pose a threat to the officers, and for that reason the responding officers should have changed their response.
His death was caused by Officer Chauvin.
Intent???? We will see.
🤤Objection, herarsay.
Overruled.🤤
Opinion
"His death was caused by Officer Chauvin."
A lawyer.
Keep in mind, the state really has to prove two different claims to arrive at criminal misconduct on the part of Chauvin in the death of Floyd.
First, the state has to prove that Chauvin’s conduct was a significant contributory cause of Floyd’s death—that would be sufficient for the third-degree murder charge. Even the other charges do not require that Chauvin intentionally killed Floyd. Apparently not even the prosecution believes this was an act of intentional RACISTPOLICEMURDER!!! Or we would see an intentional killing charge in this case, and we do not.
But I see many in the media reporting as if that’s all the state has to do, is prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin’s conduct was a significant contributory cause of Floyd’s death. If that were correct, a conviction would seem at the very least highly possible—after all, the truth is almost certainly that Floyd died not of any single cause but of multiple forces racing together to take his life—his profound heart disease, his dangerous hypertension, his deadly-levels of fentanyl complicated by methamphetamine, his decision to forcibly resist the efforts of four police officers to make his lawful arrest. But also, of course, that force used by police, including the subdual restraint.
Surely it’s not hard to imagine that the subdual restraint was a significant contributory cause of Floyd’s death—at least, it could have been, and a reasonable juror might conclude it was, and that it was proven so beyond a reasonable doubt.
Does that get us to a conviction?
No, because there’s a second condition that must also be met in order for that conduct that may have made a significant contribution to Floyd’s death to be a crime—the conduct itself must in some manner be legally wrongful. If the conduct was lawful, it cannot be the basis for criminal liability.
Some simple analogies should illustrate this point.
If you’re driving your car down the street in a safe and lawful manner, and a pedestrian unexpectedly steps in front of your vehicle and is struck and killed, you certainly made a significant contribution to that pedestrian’s death, but you haven’t committed a crime because your conduct in driving in a safe and lawful manner was not wrongful.
If a surgeon is desperately operating to save the life of a patient on his table, and the patient dies of a combination of their grave illness and the physiological stress of being opened up for surgery, certainly the opening up of the patient made a significant contribution to that patient’s death, but the surgeon hasn’t committed a crime because his conduct in performing surgery was not wrongful.
If an officer intentionally shoots and kills a suspect—so an intentional killing, which is more than Chauvin is charged with!—under circumstances that are legally justified, the officer has clearly made a significant contribution to that suspects death, but the officer has not committed a crime because his use of force was legally justified, and not wrongful.
By extension, even if Chauvin’s use of force on Floyd made a significant contribution to Floyd’s death, it’s not a crime unless that use of force was not justified under the totality of the circumstances, and thus if the force was justified it is not wrongful and not the basis for criminal liability.
Conversely, the same is true if the state’s rationale for guilt is undue delay in providing care, which is one of the several theories of guilt the state has been stirring in their narrative stew of guilt in this case. Even if the delay in care was a significant contributory fact in Floyd’s death, it is not wrongful and not the basis of criminal liability if that delay in care was reasonable under the totality of the circumstances, including the circumstance of Floyd having been just minutes ago violently fighting four officers, the circumstance of the angry crowd shouting threats of imminent physical violence, the officers having no reason to know Floyd was in such fragile condition due to existing disease and fentanyl levels, and more.
So, that’s what the state needs to have achieved by the point that they end their case in chief, even if we just limit ourselves to the 3rd degree murder charge in this case, and disregard the more serious charges—they need to have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin’s actual conduct was a significant contributory cause of Floyd’s death AND that Chauvin’s conduct was not reasonable under the totality of the circumstances, given the facts known to Chauvin and the time and in the context of his training and experience.
And the state needs to have eliminated any reasonable doubt, on both those points, in a sufficiently robust manner that it can withstand the next two weeks of defense case in chief driving every single day with every single witness to crack open that window of reasonable doubt.
As of today, has the state achieved that threshold, on both those key issues? If not, will they within the next 24 hours or so before they rest their case in chief?
Color me skeptical.
Me too.
After hearing in such clinical, heartbreaking, infuriating detail about George Floyd’s final agonies, I want to believe justice is possible in the Derek Chauvin trial. I want to believe the jurors heard what I heard and felt what I feel. I want to allow myself to hope for it. But a part of me holds back.
Justice is served when you make a fair determination of innocence or guilt.
Only a moronic "hack" would believe that criminal justice revolves around how he, as some political writer, "feels"...
Closing arguments in the trial of Mr. Chauvin are expected to come at the beginning of next week. On Monday, jurors heard from Mr. Floyd’s brother as well as a cardiologist — one of several medical witnesses called by prosecutors — who said he saw no evidence that Mr. Floyd died from a drug overdose or a heart attack. Here are the takeaways from Day 11.
The day began with the backdrop of protests that kicked off on Sunday night in Brooklyn Center, a Minneapolis suburb about 10 miles north of the courthouse. Chief Tim Gannon of the Brooklyn Center Police Department said that an officer had shot Daunte Wright, a 20-year-old Black man, after pulling him over for a traffic violation. After the car was pulled over, the officer found that the driver had a warrant for his arrest. As the police tried to arrest him, Mr. Wright stepped back into his car, and the officer shot him. Protesters gathered on Sunday night outside the Brooklyn Center Police Department. Some of the demonstrators threw objects at police officers, who responded by firing chemical agents and rubber bullets. On Monday, Chief Gannon said the officer meant to grab her Taser, but she accidentally grabbed her pistol and shot Mr. Wright.
Philonise Floyd, George Floyd’s brother, gave tearful testimony about Mr. Floyd as a brother and a son. He talked about how they played video games together when they were children. “I finally beat him in a game, and I was just so happy,” he said, giving jurors some glimpse into George Floyd’s personality and family life. “Spark of life” testimonies, like that of Philonise Floyd’s, are generally not allowed, but Minnesota courts allow them as a way to present a fuller picture of victims as human beings — personalities and all. While looking at a photo of George Floyd as a toddler, sleeping while his mother cradled him and smiled, Philonise Floyd began to cry. Their mother died in 2018, and George Floyd was deeply affected, his brother said. “When we went to the funeral, George just sat there at the casket over and over again,” he said. “He would just say, ‘Mom, Mom’ over and over again.” Philonise Floyd said his brother was a talented athlete. When George Floyd was young, he would mark his height on the wall, always wanting to be taller to have an edge in sports. “He always wanted to be the best,” his brother said.
Dr. Jonathan Rich, a cardiologist called to the witness stand by prosecutors, said that Mr. Floyd’s death was “absolutely preventable” and that officers should have immediately begun chest compressions once they failed to find a pulse. Dr. Rich is one of several medical expert witnesses who have testified that Mr. Floyd died as a result of his interaction with police officers, not from a drug overdose or a heart attack, as the defense has suggested. Dr. Rich said Mr. Floyd died from “cardio pulmonary arrest” caused by low oxygen levels induced by the police restraint. “He was trying to get enough oxygen and because of the position that he was subjected to, the heart thus did not have enough oxygen,” he said. Mr. Chauvin had used his knee to hold Mr. Floyd handcuffed and facedown on the street for nine and a half minutes. Dr. Rich said he believed that had Mr. Floyd not been restrained in that way, he would have survived.
Seth Stoughton, a law professor and expert on the use of force, also testified and is expected to be the prosecution’s final witness. Mr. Stoughton said officers severely mishandled the arrest of Mr. Floyd on nearly every level. The prone position where Mr. Floyd was held for nine and a half minutes is meant to be a temporary position, he said, typically used for applying handcuffs on a suspect. In addition, he said the dangers of the prone position — that it can make it more difficult for people to breathe, particularly when there is extra weight on their back or neck — had been well known in policing for decades.
Meet the moronic "hack"
Eugene Harold Robinson is an American newspaper columnist and an associate editor of The Washington Post. His columns are syndicated to 262 newspapers by The Washington Post Writers Group. He won a Pulitzer Prize in 2009, was elected to the Pulitzer Prize Board in 2011 and served as its chair from 2017 to 2018. Wikipedia
Born: March 12, 1954 (age 67 years), Orangeburg, SC
Spouse: Avis C. Robinson
Parents: Harold I. Robinson, Louisa Smith Robinson
Movies: The Savoy King: Chick Webb and the Music That Changed America
Education: Harvard University, University of Michigan, Orangeburg-Wilkinson High School
Compared to a Minnesota state college computer technology hack
How many more Black lives will be lost at the hands of police? This is why we need police reform.
Why is the police chief making a conclusion after he refuses to discuss details? We need police reform. A mistake???? How does this happen?? We need police reform. Expired license plates?? We need police reform. Black people in this country are dying at the hands of police. Anybody confused?
I remember an accidental police shooting in Minnesota four years ago. A Black police officer accidentally shot and killed a white woman. The police officer immediately stated it was an accident and apologized to the family. He was tried and convicted of 3rd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter. The judge refused any leniency and sentenced him to 12 1/2 years in prison. He was the first Minnesota police man to be convicted of an on duty shooting in recent years. Black police- white victim-justice was swift and stiff. Another unintentional police shooting last night - White police and Black victim. What will justice serve this time? A police chief who had made a conclusion without discussing any facts? Will the police officer apologize? Will the judge ignore leniency? Will this Black victim and his family in Minnesota see swift and stiff punishment? Does this system need reform? Do the math.
Only a moronic "hack" would believe that criminal justice revolves around how he, as some political writer, "feels"...
Yep. It's Eugene Robinson. House racist for the WaPo. He's an eloquent Al Sharpton.
And he's emblematic of all that is wrong in our society today with his bullshit feewings.
Anonymous Stevie Wonder said...
How many more Black lives will be lost at the hands of police? This is why we need police reform.
'Zactly, Steve-O.
The solution is remarkably simple. Remove the police from where blacks live and congregate. Period. Full stop.
Establish no-go zones for the cops. Neighborhoods and areas that they cannot enter, and where 911 calls will go unanswered.
Problem solved.
And he's emblematic of all that is wrong in our society today with his bullshit feelings.
While you represent the bigotry racism and hatred that is the GOP of today!!!!!! What is your claim to fame????? No wife, no kids and a dead end bullshit job that you pay no taxes on!!!!!!! BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
Wonder why the GOP is the party of failure and NO!!!!!!
A quarter of the country won’t get the coronavirus vaccine. Half of them trust Trump’s medical advice.
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By
Philip Bump
April 12, 2021 at 10:14 a.m. EDT
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We’re a year into the coronavirus pandemic, so the math that undergirds its risks should by now be familiar. We all should know, for example, that the ability of the virus to spread depends on it being able to find a host, someone who is not protected against infection. If you have a group of 10 people, one of whom is infected and nine of whom are immune to the virus, it’s not going to be able to spread anywhere.
That calculus is well known, but there is still some uncertainty at play. To achieve herd immunity — the state where the population of immune people is dense enough to stamp out new infections — how many people need to be protected against the virus? And how good is natural immunity, resistance to infection built through exposure to the virus and contracting covid-19, the disease it causes?
The safe way to increase the number of immune people, thereby probably protecting everyone by limiting the ability of the virus to spread, is through vaccination. More vaccinated people means fewer new infections and fewer infections needed to get close to herd immunity. The closer we get to herd immunity, the safer people are who can’t get vaccinated, such as young children (at least for now).
The challenge the world faces is that the rollout of vaccines has been slow, relatively speaking. The coronavirus vaccines were developed at a lightning pace, but many parts of the world are still waiting for supplies sufficient to broadly immunize their populations. In the United States, the challenge is different: About a quarter of adult Americans say they aren’t planning on getting vaccinated against the virus, according to Economist-YouGov polling released last week.
That’s problematic in part because it means we’re less likely to get to herd immunity without millions more Americans becoming infected. Again, it’s not clear how effective natural immunity will be over the long term as new variants of the virus emerge. So we might continue to see tens of thousands of new infections each day, keeping the population at risk broadly by delaying herd immunity and continuing to add to the pandemic’s death toll in this country.
But we also see from the Economist-YouGov poll the same thing we saw in Gallup polling earlier this month: The people who are least interested in being vaccinated are also the people who are least likely to be concerned about the virus and to take other steps aimed at preventing it from spreading.
In the Economist-YouGov poll, nearly three-quarters of those who say they don’t plan on being vaccinated when they’re eligible also say they’re not too or not at all worried about the virus.
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That makes some perverse sense: If you don’t see the virus as a risk, you won’t see the need to get vaccinated. Unfortunately, it also means you’re going to be less likely to do things like wear a mask in public
Or you might be more likely to view as unnecessary precautions such as avoiding close-quarter contact with friends and family or traveling out of state.
About a quarter of adults hold the view that they won’t be vaccinated when eligible. That’s equivalent to about 64 million Americans.
Who are they? As prior polls have shown, they’re disproportionately political conservatives. At the outset of the pandemic, there was concern that vaccine skepticism would heavily be centered in non-White populations. At the moment, though, the rate of skepticism among those who say they voted for Donald Trump in 2020 and among Republicans is substantially higher than skepticism overall.
Confronted with Baker’s conclusions, the prosecution did the reverse. It had a succession of medical experts state unequivocally that Floyd died because he couldn’t breathe under the grip of the police officers.
One medical witness in particular, an Irish-born pulmonologist, Dr Martin Tobin, held the jury’s attention for hours as he gave clear explanations of complex medical issues. He said that Floyd died because he was caught in a “vice” between Chauvin and the street that all but stopped him breathing
“It was almost to the effect that if a surgeon had gone in and removed the lung,” he
Everything else – brain damage and then heart failure – had followed from that.
Tobin’s conclusions were backed by another witness, Dr Lindsey Thomas, a medical examiner who trained Baker. She said the autopsy could not be considered in isolation from the video evidence of the police pressing Floyd into the street.
By the time Baker took the stand, all the prosecution had to do was to get him to agree that the autopsy offered a conclusion on the moment of Floyd’s death – that his heart gave way – but not what caused that to happen. Baker obliged by telling the jury that whatever the condition of Floyd’s heart or the impact of the drugs in his system, he would not have died on that May evening if the police officers had not set in train the collapse of his system.
While the autopsy is still a potential chink in the prosecution’s armour, Baker’s findings look less like a winning card in raising reasonable doubt than at the beginning of the trial.
Now a Minneapolis jury, and millions of Americans, wait to see whom Nelson will produce as witnesses to say differently.
As Lil Schitty wastes his day watching a killer cop trying to avoid jail.....the drum beat of other important topics beats on!!!!!!!
The Thwaites Glacier in Antarctica is seen in this undated NASA image. (NASA handout via Reuters)
The Thwaites Glacier in Antarctica is seen in this undated NASA image. (NASA handout via Reuters)
Last week, NOAA announced that, despite the pandemic, which curtailed travel and economic activity, carbon dioxide and methane levels in the Earth's atmosphere continued to rise, reaching their highest levels in the past 3.6 million years. The last time CO2 was at its current levels, global sea levels were 78 feet higher than they are today and the average global temperature was 7 degrees Fahrenheit hotter.
The fellation of trump now continues with the GOP awarding the fat fuck of florida another phony award to appease the asshole!!!!!!!! BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
Ursula Perano
Mon, April 12, 2021, 10:53 AM
The National Republican Senatorial Committee named former President Trump as the inaugural recipient of its "Champion for Freedom" award on Monday.
Why it matters: The award from Senate Republicans' campaign arm was presented the same weekend that Trump tore into Minority Leader Mitch McConnell at a Republican event at Mar-a-Lago, calling him a "dumb son of a b*tch" and "stone cold loser."
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Trump owes McConnell for many of his legislative victories and historic rate of judicial appointments, but the two Republican leaders have not spoken since McConnell condemned the former president for inciting the Jan. 6 Capitol insurrection.
Trump has also vowed to campaign against some incumbent Senate Republicans, including GOP whip John Thune (S.D.) and Sen. Lisa Murkowski (Alaska).
The big picture: Trump remains the most popular figure in the GOP, despite clear divisions with McConnell and other establishment Republicans. He's been actively releasing 2022 endorsements and will likely play a major role in GOP primaries for years to come.
Maybe it's time to get rid of Minnesota
The Democrats go off the socialist deep end and turn the states and cities that they run into fetid cesspools of civil unrest.
I’m kind over those places now.
Hear me out. I know that we have all gotten used to the way the American flag looks and that change is difficult but, let’s be honest here, we could all probably get used to having fewer stars on it. Maybe start by removing one after we rid ourselves of, say, Minnesota. I’m done with it. Minnesota and its 10,000 lakes need to go somewhere that isn’t here.
Off the top of my head, Prince is the only worthwhile thing I can think of to ever come out of Minnesota. OK, our own Ed Morrissey lives there, but he’s not a native and we can rescue him and move him to a free state.
In recent years, all the state has given us is Keith Ellison, Ilhan Omar, and race riots since last summer.
We can do better, America.
In recent years, all the state has given us is Keith Ellison, Ilhan Omar
And don't forget Lil Schitty, the blogmeister of inanity!!!!!!!!! BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
This is the probable defense witness.
Maryland’s former chief medical examiner, whose office concluded that police did not cause the controversial death of unarmed Black teenager Anton Black in 2018, has been listed as a witness for the former Minnesota officer accused of murdering George Floyd.
Dr. David Fowler, a state medical examiner for 17 years before stepping down in 2019, is the first expert witness submitted by lawyers for Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis police officer charged with the murder of George Floyd. Floyd died after Chauvin pinned his knee to Floyd’s neck for more than nine minutes while making an arrest last year.
Chauvin’s defense attorneys have argued that Floyd died not because Chauvin and other officers suffocated him by their actions, but because he used drugs and had preexisting conditions that caused his heart to fail.
They brought on Fowler to bolster that contention, although he may not take the stand. On his LinkedIn page Fowler said he “works as a private independent consultant in Forensic Pathology (who) provides expert opinion services in the causation of death by natural and non-natural processes.”
https://www.baltimoresun.com/maryland/bs-md-medical-examiner-20210407-ripppu4sfjanfihttvqneglptu-story.html
Dr Fowler decided that a black 19 year old man who died in custody by a police officer who had a long history of racial bias and violence against people of color, was innocent because he was on drugs.
On cross examination by the prosecution, his credibility will be questioned strongly.
In recent years, all the state has given us is Keith Ellison, Ilhan Omar, and race riots since last summer.
We can do better, America.
I wouldn't be so quick as to dismiss the whole state, but it is beyond dispute that Minneapolis is a verifiable third-world shithole.
Let it BURN.
The police officer had a long history of being abusive to people of color, yet his record was not available when he applied for jobs in other locations.
Police reform must remove the ability to conceal their past behaviors.
No, not cutting the budget!
It's one of the whitest states in the country idiot
"The consumer price index rose 0.6% from the previous month but 2.6% from the same period a year ago. The year over year gain is the highest since August 2018."
Inflation " Unexpectedly surges.
Mr. Broke-it Biden and his idiots are not concerned about Inflation.
Let me repeat for the imbecile alky:
"I wouldn't be so quick as to dismiss the whole state, but it is beyond dispute that Minneapolis is a verifiable third-world shithole.
Let it BURN."
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