Monday, January 29, 2018

More on the obstruction debate

Politico: Opinions of some legal experts
  • Asha Ranjappa -  Mueller would have higher bar than normal case.  Case would be stronger if he can prove the underlying crime.
  • Laurence Tribe - Believes Mueller will indict.
  • Alan Dershowitz - President cannot be accused of obstruction for exercising constitutional authority
  • Norm Eisen - Mueller will not indict. But may treat the President as unindicted co-conspirator or send report to congress with recommendations to impeach. 
  • Jennifer Taub - No solid evidence. Probably needs proof of collusion to prove there was motive to cover up.
  • Laurie Levenson - Mueller must prove corrupt intent. Firing (or wanting to fire) not proof of anything by itself.
  • Bradley Moss - No criminal charge. Report outlining his findings to Rosenstein. Probably will conclude that there is at least some evidence of obstruction. 
  • Josh Blackman - Not a federal crime or impeachable offense. Lawyers there to talk clients out of mistakes.
  • Robert Weisberg - Possible obstruction. But the alleged incident between Trump and McGahn would be privileged and inadmissible in court. 
  • Marty Lederman - Mueller's goal is to spell out the facts. Office of legal counsel concluded bringing charges against a sitting President is unconstitutional.
  • Alex Whiting - Case would have to be built on accumulation of separate pieces. No smoking gun, but still believes it could be obstruction.
  • Kathleen Clark -  McGahn had legal obligation to prevent firing. Trump followed McGahn's advice.

Of the twelve, one (Dershowitz) considers the matter closed as a matter of executive authority. Three argue that Trump cannot be held criminally liable for changing his mind and following the advice of an attorney. Three suggest that there may not be enough "known" evidence to make a strong case. Three believe that Mueller's ultimate job should be to send a report to Rosenstein (rather than bring charges).  One believes that there is evidence, but doesn't opine as to whether Mueller will indict or send report. One strongly believe that Mueller can (and should based on evidence) indict the President. 

Certainly, there is some crossover opinions. The legal expert who argues that the conversation between Trump and McGahn was probably privileged and inadmissible, says that plans to fire Mueller could have otherwise been evidence of possible obstruction. A couple of the experts who expect Mueller to just file a report make the argument that there is evidence of obstruction. Two of the experts believe that obstruction charges might be tough to prove without finding any evidence of the underlying crime (no motive, no crime).

But what is crystal clear is that there is no real legal consensus on this subject. In order to bring charges against anyone, there has be an honest belief that you can make the charges stand up. For Mueller to indict he would first have to ignore the findings of the office of legal counsel that a sitting President cannot be indicted, then fight off those challenges in court with all prevailing legal opinions and precedent against him. He would then have to fight off a slew of executive privilege, attorney client privilege, and other legal challenges that very well could hamper his ability to make a case. Remember, just because something is leaked, doesn't mean it's true. But even if it's true, it doesn't make it admissible in court.

All just to bring a case to court, where he would have to unanimously convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that a sitting President committed obstruction for exercising his constitutional authority to fire someone for cause.  Considering that that lack of consensus within the legal community on the subject tangibly provides reasonable doubt...  that seems to be a steep hill to climb.

Would a "reasonable prosecutor" bring such a case? 

62 comments:

Someone said...

"Is serious consideration of impeachment fair? I think the answer is yes. The evidence is now quite strong that Donald Trump committed obstruction of justice. Many legal scholars believe a sitting president cannot be charged with a crime. So the proper remedy for a president credibly accused of obstructing justice is impeachment.”

Warner said...

Warner Says Investigation Has New Information

Sen. Mark Warner (D-VA) told Politico that Congress late last year received “extraordinarily important new documents” in its investigation of President Trump and his campaign’s possible collusion with the 2016 Russian election hacking, opening up significant new lines of inquiry in the Senate Intelligence Committee’s probe of the president.

Warner says “end-of-the-year document dumps” produced “very significant” revelations that “opened a lot of new questions” that Senate investigators are now looking into, meaning the inquiry into Trump and the Russia hacking—already nearly a year old—will not be finished for months longer.

Anonymous said...



oh look, the pederast has ripped off an op-ed from the ny times.

written by a non-lawyer of all people.

Anonymous said...




so warner has exactly jack shit, but takes the long way around to admitting it:

On the revelations contained in the latest document dumps, for example, Warner says the panel still cannot attest to their “veracity or truthfulness” and is now “trying to either corroborate or not” by calling up to a dozen new witnesses. He also says that the allegations contained in the dossier compiled by former British spy Christopher Steele and made public last year remain neither “proven nor, conversely, disproven” despite the extensive investigations. “That's pretty amazing,” he says, “because as long as that sits out there, there's going to be a cloud that hangs over this administration.”


Lindsey Graham said...

“Everybody in the White House knows it’d be the end of President Trump’s presidency if he fires Mr. Mueller.”

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

"oh look, the pederast has ripped off an op-ed from the ny times"

and then ripped off of political_lire

All he does is dump their shit here

and never linked

A true "shit for brains" "pastor"

Anonymous said...

The Crying Chucky Schumer Shutdown 2 is days away.

Putting Illegals before US MILITARY.

Go for it, put on your "Hillary Bitches Hats" and shut it Down. But this time don't Cave.

Anonymous said...

Jane. Preteen girls are off limits. Damn your 74 years old.

Warner said...

James Boswell of Normal, Illinois is a pedophile.

Lindsey Graham said...

James Boswell of Normal, Illinois is a pedophile.

Warner said...

James Boswell of Normal, Illinois is a pedophile.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Warner also warns about a “coordinated” attack by the president and “Trump zealots” in the House of Representatives to undermine the legitimacy of the investigations against him, an effort Warner says includes the president’s threats to fire special counsel Robert Mueller and other officials as well as a secret Republican memo alleging “shocking” FBI surveillance abuse against Trump that Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.) is now threatening to release. Warner calls out Nunes, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, in arguably more explicit terms than any Democrat has yet, saying he has read the underlying classified material used in the memo and that Nunes misrepresented it as part of a McCarthyite “secret Star Chamber” effort to discredit the FBI probe of the president.

C.H. Truth said...

Wow... a real barn burner of a comment thread.

Anonymous said...

hearsay

commie said...

CH posted more guano....

Opinions of some legal experts

I prefer to wait for mueller's work to conclude rather than post my non-lawyerly opinion which CH will certainly criticize...BTW, if I m not mistaken, this barn burner thread was propagated by our esteemed host and populated by trolls....LOL

Anonymous said...

HI HB, got my $100.00. you lost the bet now pay up, unless your too broke to pay up then I will forgive the debt.

C.H. Truth said...

Roger...

The FBI and Mueller are to blame for the problems with the legitimacy of the investigation. Nobody else.

Tell it to us straight, Roger...

Are you for transparency or not? Do you believe we should shelter the public from potential unethical (or even illegal) actions of our law enforcement because we want to protect their reputation?

If that it the logic, then why shouldn't we also shelter the public from any potential unethical (or even illegal) actions of our elected officials, all in the name of protecting their reputation?


Now I understand your argument. That somehow all of this is made up shit, all for the sake of a distraction or to undermine the FBI and the Mueller investigation.

But there are two competing theories here. One is that the FBI has at least some political partisans who have used their positions to provide free sailing for one Presidential candidate, and have used their positions to try to bring down a President from the other Party. The other is that it's all B.S.

But we won't know that... until we are allowed to see the facts? Since when do we avoid the transparency of seeing the facts simply because we are afraid that it might taint someone or something.


The reality, Roger... is that it appears very obvious that you probably deep down believe that the FISA warrants were bad. That the Steele Dossier is a pile of garbage. That the missing text messages have damning evidence. That the entire Russian collusion thing (as stated by Strzok himself) is a big nothing burger.

But you prefer "not" to have any of that exposed, because you know it "will" undermine the investigation by Mueller. Moreover, you really don't want it exposed, because deep down you know that the investigation "should be" undermined if any of this is true... and you have really tied a great deal of your heart, soul, and personal reputation on finding Russian Trump collusion.

C.H. Truth said...

I prefer to wait for mueller's work to conclude rather than post my non-lawyerly opinion which CH will certainly criticize.

Does that mean that you never have in the past, and won't ever in the future... supply us with your opinion (or other opinions) on the subject at hand?

Nice to know...

Anonymous said...

President Trump's Economy

Wages rising higher then inflation. That is before the Tax on payroll kicks in. It is a net earnings gain, less going to pay for Illegals sucking the system teat and more staying in the hands of those that earn it through the trade of leisure time for labor and a paycheck.

Personal Income and Outlays


Released On 1/29/2018 8:30:00 AM For Dec, 2017

Actual
Personal Income - M/M change 0.4 %

Core PCE price index - M/M change 0.2


commie said...

Nobody else.


Horse crap....The right has done nothing but attack and try to delegitimize mueller and the FBI...You have done nothing to show either bias or improprieties by mueller other than a BS memo and opinions by Nunes and others that have fewer facts than this little slice of heaven.....

commie said...

CH the speaker for others posts


Does that mean that you never have in the past, and won't ever in the future

It means whatever you think it means and will not change any future posts may occur....One of your more troubling posts, CH....the posse must be getting real close....LOL

C.H. Truth said...

You have done nothing to show either bias or improprieties by mueller other than a BS memo and opinions by Nunes and others that have fewer facts than this little slice of heaven....

Well then I guess you agree that rather than rely on a "BS memo and opinions" that the facts should be allowed to be seen.

If the facts come out and the FISA warrants and pretense for the investigation was entirely legitimate... then everyone can move forward without the overlying cloud of possible impropriety by the FBI and DOJ.

So you should be happy to have those facts come out... right?

Anonymous said...

HI HB, got my $100.00. you lost the bet now pay up, unless your too broke to pay up then I will forgive the debt.

Anonymous said...

I think President Trump should do the interview with the same ground rules as Hillary's interview, not under oath, no recordings and told ahead of time that nothing will come of it , as it was a sham investigation.

K

commie said...

that the facts should be allowed to be seen.

Since you have yet to see the memo or a fact, I guess you should be able to answer your own question instead bullshitting your way through life like trump I guess your predisposed bias takes facts and puts them aside....and answer your rather stupid question...correct?

Anonymous said...

Jane. Preteen girls are off limits. Damn your 74 years old.

commie said...


I think President Trump should do the interview with the same ground rules

When speaking to a fed agent, it is the same as being under oath....just ask flynn....

commie said...

Preteen girls are off limits. Damn your 74 years old.

How many more time are you going to troll that wantonly stupid post??????

Myballs said...

So hillary makes an appearance on the Grammys and the show ends up with it's worst ratings in history.

Go figure.

C.H. Truth said...

Since you have yet to see the memo or a fact,

Well I would like to see both.

Why are you so disinterested in knowing the truth one way or the other?

Commonsense said...

Who'd guess that a celebration of Trump and American hating narcissism wouldn't be a ratings hit?

What were they thinking?

Commonsense said...

Vote on releasing the memo is to be held tonight.

Anonymous said...

Blogger C.H. Truth said...
Wow... a real barn burner of a comment thread.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


indeed. especially since the alky has only been able to muster a copy/paste from that politico story:

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/29/mark-warner-global-politico-216545

Anonymous said...

Commonsense said...
Vote on releasing the memo is to be held tonight.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

splendid.

i am left to wonder though why everyone to a man and woman on the left is so adamant against the release of the memo. we've been told it's absolute bullshit, nothing to see here move along, adam schiff is going to release his own memo, and now mark warner has suddenly discovered "new documents" that have yet to be reviewed.

oh, and andrew mccabe just announced his resignation.

Anonymous said...



a question for the alky or any other of the left's braintrust around here.

over 500 people have reviewed the memo.

why has it not leaked???




Commonsense said...

Andrew McCabe is out at the FBI.

Anonymous said...

Cool.

Anonymous said...

Andrew McCabe is out at the FBI.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


it was reported that he had to stay til march to collect his full pension. hopefully his early departure, if it was in fact early, costs him a fucking fortune.

the piece of shit.

Anonymous said...



heh:


Donald Trump Jr.

@DonaldJTrumpJr

Getting to read a #fakenews book excerpt at the Grammys seems like a great consolation prize for losing the presidency. #GrammyAwards

10:39 PM - Jan 28, 2018
6,964 6,964 Replies 10,424 10,424 Retweets 34,412 34,412 likes


Commonsense said...

Democrats are freaking about the memo.

Anonymous said...

Can't wait to see who votes to release it and who votes to keep We the People from seeing the facts for ourselves.

Anonymous said...



should be a party line vote all the way.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

WASHINGTON – FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe, who has been a target of unrelenting criticism from President Trump, abruptly announced his resignation Monday, according to a senior government official who was not authorized to comment publicly on personnel matters. 

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I replied on the other tread. Your assumptions and opinions are not based upon the truth.

Anonymous said...



thanks for the news the rest of us saw two hours ago, alky.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

You believe in the Secret Society. You have lost your rationality. Facts don't matter to you.

Anonymous said...

Blogger Roger Amick said...
I replied on the other tread. Your assumptions and opinions are not based upon the truth.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


ok, genius...

pick CH's points apart one by one and show us explicitly where he's wrong.

you see alky, this is why i think you're an asshole. you make a claim such as you did here, you back it up with exactly zero evidence to support your position, and you think that by simply declaring CH to be wrong you have, by default, won the argument.

that's not how this works.

CH has provided us with his point of view. backed up and substantiated with a thread of logic and purpose.

you, on the other hand, have simply provided us with a declaration that CH is wrong. no substantive facts, no framework of an opposing viewpoint, nothing to support your claim. your only effort has been to use wp as a sort of crutch. seeing as you need a walker to be ambulatory, it's ironic that you would need a crutch around here to bolster your non-existent argument.

Anonymous said...

Blogger Roger Amick said...
You believe in the Secret Society. You have lost your rationality. Facts don't matter to you.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


post some facts, alky. actual facts. not your fakebook looney toon facts. then i'll tell you if they matter or not.

all you do is claim to be correct, claim victory, then run away. support your opinion with something other than a declaration.

let's see what you got.

C.H. Truth said...

You believe in the Secret Society. You have lost your rationality. Facts don't matter to you.

Who exactly are you talking to?

I have yet to see anyone here refer to any secret society other than you.

Anonymous said...




the alky could be referring to his own secret society: numbskulls and boneheads.*


* not to be confused with yale's skull & bones.

Anonymous said...

thanks for the news the rest of us saw two hours ago, alky." RRB

It takes him longer to get to his desk top modem connected computer in his walker, then it does with our high speed wifi mobile devices.

commie said...

I have yet to see anyone here refer to any secret society other than you.

Please CH....I know you have a little brain....but Ron Johnson sure advocated that the other day....Hpwdy Gpwdy....Nunes....and that whole group that were breaking chops about those FBI text messages and demanding heads all advocated secret cabala....Please, you watch the news and for you to deny knowing anyone is about as disingenuous as anything you have ever posted.....Plus a whole lot of BS to boot....Rat hole on the other hand is a known bigot and liar which I would not expect any truth from....LOL

Anonymous said...

..but Ron Johnson sure advocated that the other day....Hpwdy Gpwdy....Nunes...
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


dumbest of dumb fucks,

let us know when ron johnson, trey gowdy or devin nunes start posting HERE.




Anonymous said...

It takes him longer to get to his desk top modem connected computer in his walker, then it does with our high speed wifi mobile devices.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


for a guy pushing a walker, he sure scurried away quickly.

must be those new tennis balls...

C.H. Truth said...

Please CH....I know you have a little brain....but Ron Johnson sure advocated that the other day...

You might want to tell Roger that Ron Johnson doesn't generally comment here.

Anonymous said...

Lol, tennis balls.

His wife is selling her home. Roger Bet Welcher told us. He said she will make like $650,000.

Anonymous said...

Hillary Clinton CNN interview.

"“We have to send a clear message, just because your child gets across the border, that doesn’t mean the child gets to stay,” the former secretary of state said. “So, we don’t want to send a message that is contrary to our laws or will encourage more children to make that dangerous journey.” bitch hillary

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I got no response on my shredder.

It was brilliant.

K'putz is obsessed with my lovely wife. We are moving up. I'm not addicted nor am I a cripple. We make six figures. Retired. Defined benefit pensions and the Social Security and Medicare.

CH, I will get back to your obsession with the cabal in the FBI @ DOJ. The fact that you didn't use the Secret Society term. But your entire construction of rotten tomatoes is entertaining.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Who the hell is Ron Johnson?

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I have skis on my walker.

I may up needing a cane. This sucks. But I dare you to come to the gym and we will see if you can move the weight I do.

Roger Amick said...

James Boswell of Normal, Illinois is a pedophile.

Anonymous said...

Blogger Roger Amick said...
I got no response on my shredder.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

that's because you shredded absolutely nothing alky.

you never do.