Friday, February 16, 2018

Interesting...

13 Russian nationals indicted for interfering in US elections
A federal grand jury in the District of Columbia on Friday indicted 13 Russian nationals and three Russian entities accused of interfering in U.S. elections.

They are accused of having a “strategic goal to sow discord in the U.S. political system, including the 2016 presidential election.”

The 37-page indictment was signed by Special Counsel Robert Mueller.

They are accused of spreading derogatory information about Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton, denigrating Republican candidates Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio -- and supporting Democratic candidate Bernie Sanders and then-Republican candidate Donald Trump.

According to the special counsel, the indictment charges the defendants with conspiracy to defraud the United States, three defendants with conspiracy to commit wire fraud and bank fraud and five defendants with aggravated identity theft.

Now all we need to do is get our extradition papers in order, and sent them off to Vladimir, who I am certain will be happy to send them all over for trial. Oh wait, we don't have an extradition treaty with Vladimir.

Obviously I have not read the indictment, nor would I likely understand everything that the indictment is attempting to accomplish. But quite obviously a foreigner interfering in a U.S. election, spreading derogatory information, and attempting to sow discord in our election process... would be a very bad thing.

I guess we should be expecting that indictment against Richard Steele any time now.

_______


Update: It appears that what Mueller is going after is a couple of long standing internet trolling agencies, that have been spread pro-Russian propaganda for quite some time. Their involvement in U.S. politics goes back at least to 2014.

Rod Rosenstein, in a press conference today suggested that there were no American citizens who knowingly participated in the scheme.  One would have to assume that if there were known American accomplices, that they would have been listed in the indictment as well.

_______
This is going to be a tough pill to swallow for the Trump/Russia collusion diehards.

Friday, Special Counsel Robert Mueller indicted 13 Russian nationals and 3 Russian entities for the unregistered interference in U.S. elections.

While Russian operatives may have had a formidable online presence prior to and during the 2016 election cycle, their efforts were not expansive enough to push the needle in any direction.

Not only did the DOJ conclude there was no willing or knowing collusion between any American and Russian operatives, they also concluded Russia’s efforts failed to impact the 2016 election.

During a press conference, Deputy AG Rod Rosenstein said, “There is no allegation in the indictment that any American was a knowing participant in the alleged unlawful activity,” adding “There is no allegation in the indictment that the charged conduct altered the outcome of the 2016 election.”
Waiting to get some other opinions on the subject. But it certainly looks like this indictment is moer exculpatory than incriminating for the members of the Trump campaign.  

75 comments:

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

It's not a hoax.

James said...

Ch doesn't care. He doesn't see anything wrong with the following either, I suppose.

____________-

According to the special counsel, the indictment charges the defendants with conspiracy to defraud the United States, three defendants with conspiracy to commit wire fraud and bank fraud and five defendants with aggravated identity theft.

wphamilton said...

Wire fraud and identity theft, sounds like pretty solidly illegal.

So you establish the crimes that have been committed, identify the entities involved, and then cooperation or coordination with the entities would transform "collusion" into "criminal conspiracy". One way it could go.

C.H. Truth said...

WP...

Do you honestly expect that any of these people are going to come over to the United States and talk to Mueller, much less allow themselves to be arrested and face charges?

We do not have an extradition treaty with Russia. Even if we did, it would still be up to the Russian Government to make a final call.

It appears that he is going after organized Russian internet trolling organizations.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

They eventually went after Clinton in favor of Trump .

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Russian Internet agency and more than a dozen Russians interfered in the U.S. election campaign from 2014 through 2016 in a multi-pronged effort with the aim of supporting then-businessman Donald Trump and disparaging his rival Hillary Clinton, the U.S. Special Counsel said in an indictment on Friday.

The 37-page indictment filed by Special Counsel Robert Mueller described a conspiracy to disrupt the U.S. election by people who adopted false online personas to push divisive messages; traveled to the United States to collect intelligence; and staged political rallies while posing as Americans.

Russia's Internet Research Agency "had a strategic goal to sow discord in the U.S. political system, including the 2016 U.S. presidential election," the indictment states.

"Defendants posted derogatory information about a number of candidates, and by early to mid-2016, Defendants' operations included supporting the presidential campaign of then-candidate Donald J. Trump ... and disparaging Hillary Clinton."

RELATED: Key Trump officials, advisers of note in the Russia probe


The indictment broadly echoes the conclusions of a January 2017 U.S. intelligence community assessment, which found that Russia had meddled in the election, and that its goals eventually included aiding Trump.

President Trump has been briefed on the indictment announced on Friday, White House spokeswoman Sarah Sanders said

Trump has never unequivocally accepted that report, and has denounced Mueller's probe into whether his campaign colluded with the Kremlin as a "witch hunt."

Facebook and Twitter both declined to comment on the indictment.

The court document appeared likely to provide ammunition to Democrats and others arguing for a continued aggressive probe of the matter.

The indictment names the Internet Research Agency, based in St. Petersburg, Russia; 13 Russian nationals; and two other companies.

The 2017 intelligence agency finding has spawned investigations into any ties between Republican Trump's campaign and Moscow. Russia denies interfering in the election. Trump denies any collusion by his campaign.

Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats told the Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday that he had already seen evidence Russia was targeting U.S. elections in November, when Republican control of the House of Representatives and Senate are at stake, plus a host of positions in state governments.

"Frankly, the United States is under attack," Coats said at an annual hearing on worldwide threats.

Russia would try to interfere in the 2018 U.S. midterm elections by using social media to spread propaganda and misleading reports, much as it did in the 2016 campaign, intelligence chiefs said at the hearing.

(Reporting by Warren Strobel and Dustin Volz; editing by Grant McCool)

wphamilton said...

CH, what part of establishing coordination between Americans and these Russians requires us to extradite them and actually have them in custody?

Ask yourself honestly, which is more likely: Mueller has no reason for these indictments, or he has reasons and CH has missed them?

wphamilton said...

Even if you can't fathom the reasons for the indictments, did you honest expect that the Congressionally authorized Special Investigation into Russian interference would identify the Russians involved, identify the crimes committed and then say "Oh, they're Russians. No extradition treaty, so never mind"?

What would you have him do, bury it so that no one would suspect that Russia was involved? No Russians, equals no collusion, equals Trump is home free? That's what you think should happen ... because Russia probably won't turn them over to us??

Anonymous said...

identity theft, sounds like pretty solidly illegal.*

Millions of Hispanic illegals do it every year. Now it is zbig deal to jane, the cripple and WP.

The days are numbered for this president. Yep , you got him.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

I get something about this shows they wanted to elect the incompetent President .

C.H. Truth said...

WP...

At the end of the day, this is the sort of information that Mueller was supposed to bring to us. Who did what. Everyone figured there was a bunch of Russian trolls. Now we have faces to the names. I doubt this is anything new. My best guess is that the FBI already had most of this information before Mueller was even appointed.

The indictments are for show. He makes news. Ever notice that he makes his plays right around the time he is facing criticism? Technically special counsel is supposed to investigate, report, and then sit down with the A.G. to decide about charges.

Seems like when things go sour, Mueller makes news?

Think about.

- All of the issues with the FICA warrants.

- The fact that Rosenstein might be on the hot seat.

- Flynn judge taking him to task on that plea (requesting that Mueller turn over any exculpatory evidence to defense, and anything questionable to him - before any sentencing).

- the fact he is being sued by Manafort.

Time to make more news, huh?


Commonsense said...

Wire fraud and identity theft, sounds like pretty solidly illegal.

They would actually have to prove they stole an identity instead of just making one up.

Or they actually have to prove the received money or otherwise use it for some nefarious activity.

Creating an identity just to express and opinion or conduct political activity is not necessary illegal. (This in fact happens all the time on twitter and facebook.)

The only way it become illegal is to avoid that law against foreign nationals participating in political activity. But that law in itself has first amendment issues. (For example: Do you really want to prohibit a Dreamer from lobbying and volunteering for a political campaign because they are technically foreign national?)

Anonymous said...

Back in the real world.

"Tax cut scoreboard: Workers $6 billion; Shareholders $171 billion"

Risk takers of course get the bigger rewards.

wphamilton said...

Think about.

- All of the issues with the FICA warrants.
- I doubt that Mueller cares. Tempest in a teapot, and not his problem.

- The fact that Rosenstein might be on the hot seat. Hot seat as in targeted by the Tea Party faction? Doubt it factors into any of Mueller's decision making.

- Flynn judge taking him to task on that plea (requesting that Mueller turn over any exculpatory evidence to defense, and anything questionable to him - before any sentencing). Standard procedure. Except that Judge Sullivan may be reversing the plea agreement.

- the fact he is being sued by Manafort. Frivolous lawsuit is a stunt typical of defendants with money to burn. Everyone but the court that has to waste time dismissing it is laughing about it.

There's no way that any of this factors into deciding to indict some Russians turned up in the investigation. The indictments put names and crimes into the public domain, and now contacts between them and the Trump campaign, or between them and campaign surrogates, are evidence of conspiracy or at least accessory to the crimes. Isn't that straightforward enough?

wphamilton said...

They would actually have to prove they stole an identity instead of just making one up.

CS, You'd better fire off an email to Mueller, so that he knows about this.

/sarcasm

Commonsense said...

I'm sure he does, it not the first time a prosecutor threw out a specious indictment.

After all he can get some people to believe in anything and not question it one bit.

Commonsense said...

- the fact he is being sued by Manafort. Frivolous lawsuit is a stunt typical of defendants with money to burn.

Maybe not so frivolous. There is a possibility Mueller's office withheld exculpatory information from Flyn's lawyers.

wphamilton said...

It's almost a certainty, since Flynn agreed to a plea deal and many courts, and prosecutors, hold that suppression of exculpatory evidence during negotiations is allowed. Once you go to trial you have a constitutional right to it. During plea bargaining, maybe not.

The upshot if this is, if there IS exculpatory evidence that was not disclosed during plea bargain, and it is significant, Judge Sullivan will overturn the plea deal and allow him to defend himself. Sullivan is making sure that everything is air-tight, not necessarily putting anyone on the hot seat.

wphamilton said...

I'm sure he does, it not the first time a prosecutor threw out a specious indictment.

Yeah, it's not like Mueller is an experienced prosecutor or investigator or anything like that. Send your email, just in case he didn't think people would spot that no identity was stolen in an identity theft charge.

/sarcasm

CS, are you hanging around with James in his fantasy world? The charges of identity theft are because real people's real identities were stolen and used.

Anonymous said...

All of this important how?

wphamilton said...

Although, Flynn's plea bargain issues have zip to do with Manafort's frivolous lawsuit. Have you read the thing? It's a PR stunt, not worth 10 minutes of Mueller's legal team's time. CH was being ridiculous to even bring it up.

Anonymous said...

Even IF Trump is removed, it still does not change the 2016 election. And the Trump agenda is almost fully inplemented.

C.H. Truth said...

WP....

The issue isn't the specifics... it's that these things are dominating the news. People have become disinterested in the Mueller investigation (for good reason) and there has been a growing belief (even with some of my liberal friends who would probably call it a concern) that there was never anything to the Trump Russia collusion issue to begin with.

We shall see what comes of it... but if there was any intention of making it appear that Mueller was putting pressure on Trump or his campaign with some veiled implication that there is more to it...

Well then Rosenstein threw a whole bunch of water on that one by declaring that there was no allegation of any American being a willing participant. The point seemed to be made with a specific candor that could have been much easier answered with more non-specific non-answer... something like one of those... we cannot comment on other aspects of the investigation that may have to do with this... blah blah blah.

wphamilton said...

All this is CH's red herring, not important in any respect. CS tends to double down whenever CH comes out with something like this - maybe saves CH the embarrassment of trying to defend it.

Flynn's case may be significant, but has absolutely no bearing on the Russian indictments.

wphamilton said...

The issue isn't the specifics... it's that these things are dominating the news. People have become disinterested

Kind of self-contradictory, don't you think?

The Russian indictments are dominating headlines. Mueller closing the deal with another top Trump campaigner is in the headlines. I'd say that there is still considerable interest in the investigation.

Anonymous said...

It appears that he is going after organized Russian internet trolling organizations.

precisely.

mueller and rosenstein have been screwing the pooch with this 'investigation' for close to two years. so to make it look like they're actually accomplishing anything they indict a pack of russians they will never be able to prosecute.

in other news, it's been revealed that the FBI received another alert to the florida shooter on january 5th. back in the day when the FBI actually fought crime this shooting would've been avoided. but now that the FBI is in the business of politics and deposing legally elected president's more kids will have to die.

Commonsense said...

CS, are you hanging around with James in his fantasy world?

Well WP I'll answer that as soon as you answer this:

What part of "He has to prove actual identities were stolen instead of just made up." did you not understand?


Or are you just one of those people who think an indictment is sufficient to prove guilt?

We can just skip the trial?

Anonymous said...

Hillary called it "Opposition Research"

Your hoping Mueller calls it a crime.

That's funny.

wphamilton said...

Well then Rosenstein threw a whole bunch of water on that one by declaring that there was no allegation of any American being a willing participant.

Not in the indictments. That's kind of a soft-ball, since presumably we'll be able to read them for ourselves at some point.

You'd be naive to think that was the end of it. Trump will no doubt declare "And NO Collusion, exonerated!"

wphamilton said...

What part of "He has to prove actual identities were stolen instead of just made up." did you not understand?

The part where anyone who isn't fantasizing thinks that he didn't.

Commonsense said...

CS tends to double down whenever CH comes out with something like this

Actually I'm not doubling down on CH's point. I was making a separate point about the 1st amendment implications of the indictment.

Apparently that went over your head.

Commonsense said...

The part where anyone who isn't fantasizing thinks that he didn't

So you are one of those people who think an indictment is sufficient proof of guilt.

Hopefully, you don't work in the legal community.

wphamilton said...

I didn't even address that part. There are no 1st Amendment implications with the indictments.

You were doubling down on specifically the red herring list that CH enumerated.

wphamilton said...

Just stop trying. This, and your point, has nothing to do with whether a trial has commenced. You think that Mueller might have indicted Russians for identity theft of made-up identities. You realize now how stupid that sounds, and want to say "now he has to prove it in court".

Yes, Mueller will have to present his evidence in court, CS. You might want to include that in your urgent email, since you think other people will miss that important part.

Commonsense said...

There are no 1st Amendment implications with the indictments.

Since we are dealing whether it is constitutionally protected political speech or not I disagree.

C.H. Truth said...

The Russian indictments are dominating headlines. Mueller closing the deal with another top Trump campaigner is in the headlines. I'd say that there is still considerable interest in the investigation.

No, the Russian indictments are in the headlines "today"...

Mueller (other than speculation to job security) has not been in the headlines for quite some time. To the degree that the Russian investigation has been in the headlines is whether or not the whole collusion thing was a hoax, or whether the FBI and the Obama DOJ broke laws.

The Manafort indictments came at a similar time where the news had been negative towards the Russian investigation as a whole.

C.H. Truth said...

A serious question for you, WP...

Do you believe that these Russians will be extradited to the United States to stand trial?

Commonsense said...

You think that Mueller might have indicted Russians for identity theft of made-up identities.

I don't know what Muellier was thinking but I do know this:

You can create as many accounts on twitter and facebook as you like all you need to do is create an associated email account for it.

None of this requires you to steal a real identity and as far as I know this is all perfectly legal.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

They can only be extradited back to the United States, if they travel to countries with extradition agreements with the US.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

No collusion!

Not one fucking word about the Russian intervention into the election. He claims that the early start clears him of allegations.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

He said that he has other targets.

Commonsense said...

Not one fucking word about the Russian intervention into the election.

Not true, he said the results of the election were not affected.

C.H. Truth said...

Roger...

There are no allegations in this indictment against Trump, nor any good implications that any allegations are coming surrounding this situation.

To be perfectly honest, I was hoping that the FBI and Mueller were able to find out the people who actually hacked the email accounts. That was the most blatant crime.

The whole internet trolling thing... with all due respect... isn't exactly the sort of stuff we paid tens of millions and provided a staff of prosecutors bigger than some state DA offices to come back with.

wphamilton said...

Do you believe that these Russians will be extradited to the United States to stand trial?

For fraud against the US government? No, the Russians won't turn them over.

Regarding the wire fraud, which involved purchasing lists of credit card numbers and accounts to PayPal, doubtful but any their properties in the US will be seized.

BTW, to put to rest the wilder tinfoil hat "fake ID theft indictment" theory (CS's not yours): bank accounts were created using the stolen identities of US citizens, and a stolen identity was used to send emails to grassroots groups in Florida. They also used " social security numbers, home addresses, and birth dates of real U.S. persons to open accounts at PayPal"


Case 1:18-cr-00032-DLF Document 1 Filed 02/16/18

Anonymous said...

Mueller charged "Trolls".

Oh gawd.

Anonymous said...

So Trump directed the Russians to steal ID's.

K, what are the names of the US Citizen ...

William Hamilton said...

Since we are dealing whether it is constitutionally protected political speech or not I disagree.

Disagree all you want, but the indictment isn't about their internet trolling. We aren't dealing at all with whether it's protected speech or not.

Why are you defending the Russians, CS, with foil hat conspiracy thought like this? Did you get taken in by one of the names listed?

KD look at the link I gave you for God's sake.

C.H. Truth said...

BTW, to put to rest the wilder tinfoil hat "fake ID theft indictment" theory (CS's not yours): bank accounts were created using the stolen identities of US citizens, and a stolen identity was used to send emails to grassroots groups in Florida. They also used " social security numbers, home addresses, and birth dates of real U.S. persons to open accounts at PayPal"

Which is a crime. But the accused opening up PayPal accounts and using their own money to fund them...

Is different than stealing someone's identity, taking the victim's money from the victim's accounts...


The basic underlying "crime" that Mueller seems to be focused on is the idea that it's illegal to interfere in our elections, and that these people went to extreme lengths to conceal themselves. He is elevating the criminal charges (from identity theft to aggravated identity theft) because the theft was done in conjunction with the more serious crime.

This might make for a less hypocritical political statement from the US Government if we were not ourselves engaged in election manipulation all over the world.

In other words, it might play well to the anti-Trump crowd here in the United States, many of whom spontaneously ejaculate everything Mueller makes news... But I wonder how this plays internationally. If you look at it purely from that perspective, it could be seen as sort of lashing out over someone doing to us, what we do to so many others. Might be hard to generate a lot of sympathy here.

James said...

Update: It appears that what Mueller is going after is a couple of long standing internet trolling agencies, that have been spread pro-Russian propaganda for quite some time. Their involvement in U.S. politics goes back at least to 2014.
_________________-

Gosh, I thought the Russia probe was nothing but a "witchunt."
Sounds pretty legitimate to me.

Commonsense said...

Why are you defending the Russians, CS

I thought that would be obvious, I'm concerned about the criminalization of political speech.

Commonsense said...

Update: It appears that what Mueller is going after is a couple of long standing internet trolling agencies, that have been spread pro-Russian propaganda for quite some time.

Even pro-Russian propaganda is suppose to be constitutionally protected speech.

See why I'm concern?

But I suppose it is difficult for people who want to ban "hate speech" to see the danger.

wphamilton said...

Is different than stealing someone's identity, taking the victim's money from the victim's accounts...

Well yeah, that would be identity theft and theft by fraud.


The basic underlying "crime" that Mueller seems to be focused on is the idea that it's illegal to interfere in our elections

OK that's just a weird statement. Could you browse through the pdf of the indictment, that I linked above, and point me to wherever it is that gave you that idea?

I thought that would be obvious, I'm concerned about the criminalization of political speech.

CS, you also please browse the indictment and point to something that gives you that weird idea.

Is there some talking point about that on brieghtbert or Fox, that the rest of us haven't seen yet?

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Overt Acts: June 2016

Anonymous said...

So most of these cases started in 2014.

Anonymous said...

Why did Pres. Obama not protect the US?

Anonymous said...

See why I'm concern? " CS

Yes, political speech is protected speech.

Why did Pres.Obama not defend and protect the USA?

Was it part of the "flexabilty" he personally promised the Russians.

commie said...

Menstral again gets it completely wrong with....

he said the results of the election were not affected.


Close menstral Mr. Rosenstein said repeatedly that the indictment does not allege that the Russian operation changed the outcome of the presidential election.

It basically said they are not commenting on whether the election was affected....Which is not their job!!! Dayum you really are cramped up today,,,Again a nice try but stupid as hell....

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

Spying on the Americans and interfering in our elections, by Russian citizens spies, is not protected by the First Amendment. Citizens of foreign countries, are not granted constitutional rights..

By July 2016, the same month of the infamous "adoption" meeting. IRA’s operations “included supporting the presidential campaign of then Donald J. Trump…and disparaging Hillary Clinton.”

Defendants knowingly and unknowingly conspired with each other (and with persons known and unknown to the Grand Jury) to defend the United States.

“By 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used their fictitious online personas to interfere with the 2016 U.S. presidential election,”

“They engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump.”


It said that people indicted communicated with “unwitting individuals associated with the Trump campaign.” But that makes you wonder who what is going to come out of this: Are they Americans or Russians?

This is not something that clears the President of collusion. Despite his tweet.

Anonymous said...

"The US economy is better off under President Donald Trump that it would have been under Hillary Clinton, according to Lloyd Blankfein, the CEO of Goldman Sachs.

"If the president didn't win and Hillary Clinton won ... I bet you the economy is higher today than it otherwise would be," Blankfein said in an interview with CNN's Christine Romans.

Blankfein had backed Clinton's bid for the White House."


Anonymous said...

Pres. Trump keep winning for America.

Roger, missing a joint, stiff drink and opium about now?

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

13 Russian nationals and 3 Russian companies were indicted for committing “federal crimes while seeking to interfere in the U.S. political system, including the 2016 presidential election.”

CS, did you dig out the belief that they were protected by the First Amendment out of ???? Rush Limbaugh's drug infected ass?

Myballs said...

I noticed the same thing as cht that mueller likes to come out with indictments whenever the news has turned negative against the collusion lie.

C.H. Truth said...

James - everyone already knew that there were Russian (and lots of other) trolls. Didn't need a multi-million dollar special counsel to tell us that.

But if that's all he finds... and there is no "collusion" with the Trump team, then his probe will be considered a "failure" to many.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

k'ptutz, shut up or you will make an even bigger fool of yourself.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

2014 thru 2016, who allowed these Trolls to Operate unrestrained in the USA. Little berry, again the Russian Troons were playing ,Chess, Oblunder was playing idiot.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

CH, you keep saying that this is just a social media game. It's far more important, and the facts contradict you without a doubt.
From the indictment.

“By 2016, Defendants and their co-conspirators used their fictitious online personas to interfere with the 2016 U.S. presidential election,”
“They engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and
then-candidate Donald Trump.” “unwitting individuals associated with the Trump campaign.”

We don't know what other shit will hit the fan. This does not specifically say that the Russian involvement affected the election. But that's not what matters. They attacked the fundamental right to choose our leaders. It's a very big deal.

Will this get people to wonder if their votes even matter? That is very very important.

Anonymous said...

Lol, Roger the joint tok'n, booze swill ing , opium addicted said:

"
drug infected ass?"

Yeah, we know.

C.H. Truth said...

So Roger...

So apparently you believe everything in the indictment "except" the claims that the meddling had no tangible impact on the election?

Btw... the indictment also stated that after the election, the same group organized a bunch of anti-Trump rallies. Not being mentioned by many of your favored news sites, huh?

I still go back to the reality here. We do much worse to other countries in our attempts to influence their politics and their elections. The Russians are not the only people out there meddling, and if we shut this group down, then the next group (either from Russia, China, or where ever) just step in.

Also, there is still not any indication that the FBI or Mueller have figured out who hacked (or attempted to Hack) both Parties and both campaigns. That still seems to be the bigger fish that needs to be fried.

Anonymous said...

to support Bernie Sanders"

Omg, the Russian Trolls want a Socialist to win. Must be why he almost beat Hillary IF not for rigging it. But hey, this is about the failure of Prez Oblunder, failing to protect and defend the USA. 《《Wink by Oblunder more flexible Red line Drawer to the Russians that Punked him. Repeatedly》》.

cowardly king obama said...


"Will this get people to wonder if their votes even matter? That is very very important. "

Yep, we need voter ID

Anonymous said...

Seems a logical step.

Coldheartedtruth Teller said...

CH,I know that this does not claim that there was no known affect on the outcome of the election.

That in no way lessens the importance of this attack on the election.

1: It was designed to change the out come. We will never know if this influenced the 72,000 voters that swung the election to Trump. It does totally destroy the President's repeated claim that the Russian investigation was a hoax. I don't need to give you a dozen links to the various times that Trump claimed it was a Democratic party attempt to De-legitimize his election. It was not a hoax.

2: We know that Muller has conducted a very, very intricate investigation. The Russians attacked the United States, in an attempt to influence the election. If this is the last report, its probably over for the President.. But he is conducting a lot of interviews, and we don't know how many are appearing before the grand jury. If there were people knowingly involved, they would be facing long prison sentences.This isn't over CH. And btw, you should stop following the directions on the White House statement issued this morning. Think for yourself.


Anonymous said...

Oh goodie , alky is triggered.

After predicting Trump would not last a year.

C.H. Truth said...

Roger -

I am thinking for myself. I am not listening to the anonymous sources, the unsubstantiated leaks, following the hype, or looking for a talking points memo..

Which of us posts other people's articles over and over... treating them as if they are gospel truth? Me or you? The one who does it, is not thinking for themselves. It's pretty simple, really.

and seriously... You don't see the oddity of several news organizations using the exact same phrasing to describe all of this. Or to call it like it is... the same spin?

The difference between your beliefs and mine are simple.

Yours have been, and continue to be... all about the "possibilities" that something exists that is not yet been shown to be. Mine is always grounded in what we actually know.

You see the entire situation as if the accusations are to be believed until they are somehow disproven. My belief continues to be that without any evidence that Trump colluded... it's nothing but an unfounded accusation.

I doubt your mind would ever be changed. You will always believe what you believe today. My mind would be changed (logically) if there ever was tangible evidence offered. That's likely the biggest difference between our thought patterns.


The Russian "meddling" had two parts. The alleged hacking of the emails with the subsequent release to wiki-leaks, and the coordinated effort to use social media to throw chaos into the system.

We now know that Mueller did not tie anyone in the Trump campaign to the second portion. In my opinion, that was probably the most likely area where there could have been coordination.

As far as the first portion. I am not convinced that our intelligence agencies even have solid evidence of who actually did he hacking. It was well known to be basically the consensus opinion, but for all practical purposes it was an educated guess. I am not guessing that the Mueller team of prosecutors actually was able to come up with better intelligence than our major intelligence agencies did. Likely they are doing more combing through existing evidence, looking for whether or not they can bring any indictments against anyone... than actually finding new information.

James said...

CH: I am not convinced that our intelligence agencies even have solid evidence of who actually did he hacking.

It was probably the Swiss.