Tuesday, June 5, 2018

A second look at the Masterpiece decision...

So I reread most of the decision last night, read several different legal takes on the 7-2 ruling, and have settled into a somewhat similar, but yet not "exactly" the same take as I had yesterday.

The key piece in all of this just might be when the court brings up the fact that the Colorado administrative agency had previously backed the rights of three different bakers who refused to bake cakes that were claimed to be "anti-gay". In these cases the patrons all requested that some form of scripture be written on the cake, and that the scripture was deemed to be offensive to the bakers.

So in essence, the Colorado agency created a double standard, where bakers could refuse to bake a religious cake because the scripture was offensive to them, but that religious bakers would be forced to bake cakes that was offensive to their religious beliefs. This is where it should become reasonably easy to see why seven Justices were able to craft together agreement on this one.
A principled rationale for the difference in treatment of these two instances cannot be based on the government’s own assessment of offensiveness. Just as “no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion,” West Virginia Bd. of Ed. v. Barnette, 319 U. S. 624, 642 (1943), it is not, as the Court has repeatedly held, the role of the State or its officials to prescribe what shall be offensive. . . . The Colorado court’s attempt to account for the difference in treatment elevates one view of what is offensive over another and itself sends a signal of official disapproval of Phillips’ religious beliefs.
So contrary to the arguments being made that main objection of the court was that they were offended by the overt treatment of Phillip's religious views throughout the procedure, it would appear that they believe that the ruling itself (considered with these other rulings) provided the evidence of "official disapproval" of Phillips' religious beliefs. This is a much stronger legal argument (and legal precedent) than what is being suggested. On the heels of that passage, this second passage seems to make more sense.
"The outcome of cases like this in other circumstances must await further elaboration in the courts, all in the context of recognizing that these disputes must be resolved with tolerance, without undue disrespect to sincere religious beliefs, and without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market."
At the end of the day, what the court is saying is simple. You must treat religious rights with the same respect as gay rights. This was quite obviously "not" the case in Colorado, nor is it the case with a growing number of Judges. More to the point, it may well be an extremely bitter pill for many of these lower courts and agencies to swallow moving forward.

In the Colorado case, the remedy is simple. Either you rule that everyone has the right to be offended and refuse to offer their services in these circumstances, or you force everyone to provide their services to everyone. So if you want to demand that the Christian has to bake the same sex wedding cake then you must also demand that the gay baker must bake the cake with scripture he finds offensive, and that the Jewish baker must bake the cake with the swastika decoration, and so on and so forth.

But what judges are not allowed to do it turn their courts into social justice arenas, where they alone get to decide what is and isn't offensive. They must now respect that "sincere religious beliefs" are entitled to the same respect that they might want to give "gay rights". They can no longer simply choose to discount the former in deference to the latter.

So while it may not be the exact ruling that your religious freedom activists were looking for, nor the exact ruling that your gay rights activists were hoping for... I think it was exactly the sort of ruling that we probably needed at this time. A ruling that works towards putting an end to this sort of legal and political "hypocrisy" that seems to running completely out of control.

32 comments:

James said...

Let me do a little rewording for you, Ch, putting some new words in CAPS:

They must now respect that "sincere religious beliefs" are entitled to the same respect that they might want to give "SINCERE gay rights BELIEFS". They can no longer simply choose to discount the former in deference to the latter.

They must ALSO NOW respect that "SINCERE GAY RIGHTS BELIEFS" are entitled to the same respect that they might want to give "sincere religious beliefs". They can no longer simply choose to discount the former in deference to the latter.

That could make for some difficult decisions in the future.

Agree?

Anonymous said...

Nope

Anonymous said...



At the end of the day, what the court is saying is simple. You must treat religious rights with the same respect as gay rights.


like i said on the previous thread...

this ain't rocket science. i'm willing to bet that most if not all of the controversy goes away if the LGBTQWERTY brigade would just stop trolling christian bakers, florists, and wedding venue hosts. accept the fact that your right to marry and their right to worship are equal, and leave them the fuck alone as a result.



C.H. Truth said...

James -

I have no problem with however you want to describe the situation.

- gay rights = religious rights

or

- religious rights = gay rights

As long as we are both in agreement that you should treat the two equally, then I see no cause for argument.

Anonymous said...

USSC , Look how this support of the US Constitution has gay jane going off.

Anonymous said...

like i said on the previous thread...

this ain't rocket science. i'm willing to bet that most if not all of the controversy goes away if the LGBTQWERTY brigade would just stop trolling christian bakers, florists, and wedding venue hosts. accept the fact that your right to marry and their right to worship are equal, and leave them the fuck alone as a result."

Yep.

commie said...

e. Either you rule that everyone has the right to be offended and refuse to offer their services in these circumstances, or you force everyone to provide their services to everyone

If that is what you get out of the decision....I feel sorry for you and your kids..... If someone is so easily offended, they should not be in the public determining who can buy their wares....classic bigotry which you now endorse...trolling bakeries is the stupidest thing ever proffered here. No surprise the cultists endorse hatred!!!

commie said...

Ain't it great that our liar in chief wanted to throw a party and no one came except the bands???? Yep, he is wining bigly with the people and demanding standing at the anthem or you are dirt.....Sad it has come down to this.....!!!!

Anonymous said...

Liberals congrats, miss America is now the lesibian bull dyke competition.

C.H. Truth said...

Opie

Did you miss the part where the same agency ruled in favor of gay bakers who were offended by having to create a cake with scripture on it?

Are you willing to denounce the gay baker for not wanting to bake cakes he believes are anti-gay... and tell him to suck it up or get out of the public domain?

Or does your denunciation only apply to religious people?


Anonymous said...

Look for the NFL to continue to enjoy less views and sales.

Anonymous said...

Bingo

"Are you willing to denounce the gay baker for not wanting to bake cakes he believes are anti-gay... and tell him to suck it up or get out of the public domain?

Or does your denunciation only apply to religious people?"

commie said...

Faux news creating its own fake news and getting caught....where is the outrage from the liar in chief?????

In the latest episode of President Trump vs. The NFL, the president disinvited the Philadelphia Eagles from a White House visit because of what the president claimed was the Eagles’ history of “disrespectful” protests. Fox News chimed in with a report on the story, supplemented with images of Eagles players. There was just one problem: the Fox News report painted a highly inaccurate picture of the Eagles, presenting prayer as protest. (UPDATE: Fox News has apologized, see below.)

Fox News began its report by showing several images of several Eagles players kneeling; the images of players kneeling during the anthem helped stoke anti-protest rage last season:


But Fox News’s report had a major problem: the players it depicted were kneeling in prayer, not protest. Tight end Zach Ertz, one of the players depicted, took to Twitter to blast Fox News for its inaccuracy:

commie said...

Look for the NFL to continue to enjoy less views and sales.

Who other than you gives a fuck/?????

commie said...


Are you willing to denounce the gay baker for not wanting to bake cakes he believes are anti-gay..

LOL at you again CH...As absurd your posit is.....if the gay baker proved his religion made him do it, you would be fawning all over the asshole.... I once asked a baskin robbins amployee write fuck you on a cake.....what do you think the outcome was????

commie said...

The most lying administration evah....when in doubt blame the Dems......its what you all do best!!!

Two days after Sen. Jeff Merkley (D-OR) was denied entry to an immigrant detention center in Brownsville, Texas that houses undocumented children, President Trump sought to pin blame for his administration’s policy of separating children from their parents on Democrats.

“Separating families at the Border is the fault of bad legislation passed by the Democrats,” Trump tweeted. “Border Security laws should be changed but the Dems can’t get their act together! Started the Wall.”


In just 32 words, Trump managed to pack in least four blatant lies about immigration policy.

There is no legislation requiring the Trump administration to separate children from their parents
Congress hasn’t passed a law requiring undocumented children to be separated from their parents when they cross the border. Instead, in April, Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced a new “zero tolerance” policy for border-crossers.


“To those who wish to challenge the Trump Administration’s commitment to public safety, national security, and the rule of law, I warn you: illegally entering this country will not be rewarded, but will instead be met with the full prosecutorial powers of the Department of Justice,” Sessions wrote in a statement announcing the new policy. “To the Department’s prosecutors, I urge you: promoting and enforcing the rule of law is vital to protecting a nation, its borders, and its citizens. You play a critical part in fulfilling these goals, and I thank you for your continued efforts in seeing to it that our laws—and as a result, our nation—are respected.”

That policy has resulted in children being separated from their parents and taken to facilities like the Casa Padre one in Brownsville, while their parents are taken to jail.

The Trump administration is fully responsible for the family separation policy
The “zero tolerance” policy was developed and implemented entirely by the Trump administration. Democratic lawmakers had nothing to do with it.

C.H. Truth said...

So Opie...

What exactly is your stance here?

Do you believe that Bakers in general should have the right to decline to bake particular cakes that offend them?

or

Do you believe that Bakers in general should simply bake whatever cake the patron would like them to bake?


It seems like a pretty simple question (and concept).

But one that obviously confuses you.

Commonsense said...

Frankly I find the whole concept of forced servitude to be deeply offensive as well as unconstitutional.

People shouldn't be force to work for anyone or compelled to provide a service. They should be free to accept or refuse contracts for any reason.

Anonymous said...



I once asked a baskin robbins amployee write fuck you on a cake.....


and that was for your own daughter - mary jane rottencrotch.

Anonymous said...

The left is in search of a message for 2018.

Anonymous said...

What exactly is your(Dennis) stance here?" CHT

This should be good.

Commonsense said...

The day TDS bacame fatal.

Kate Spade, fashion designer, found dead; sources say she committed suicide

Anonymous said...

Lol. Yep.

Bill and Hillary book tour failures.
Bill explaining why he raped women

Anonymous said...

More Winning Bigly.
"PMI services moved higher in the flash report for May, getting a boost from backlogs and showing other signs of capacity stress as well including a rise in input costs. The index is expected to hold at the 55.7 flash reading."

Actual = 56.8

Anonymous said...

More Winning, another above expectation.

Acceleration is the call for the ISM non-manufacturing index which fell back in April due to a shortening in delivery times, one that may have proven temporary given continuing reports of substantial delays in other data. New orders were very strong in April and point to general strength for the May report. Forecasters see the index rising 1.2 points to 58.0."

Actual = 58.6

Anonymous said...

More Winning lyrics Biggly.
"Job openings, at a consensus 6.543 million in April, are expected to hold near March's 6.550 million total and emerge above the number of employed actively looking for work, which for comparison totaled 6.346 million in April (6.065 million was posted for May). Openings in this report have been well ahead of hirings suggesting that employers aren't finding sufficient candidates."

Actual = 6.698 M

commie said...

KD said...
More Winning lyrics Biggly.
"Job openings, at a consensus 6.543 million

And the fucking loser from kansas can't find gainful employment but chooses to waste his menial life posting here and looking like a fool....The irony is priceless

commie said...

and that was for your own daughter

Actually was for my future wife....asshole.....

commie said...


What exactly is your stance here?

So assholes, I have expressed my exact stance here more than once and you know exactly what I feel......Unlike you, I deplore bigotry like yours and so called holier than thou so called christians. The only one confused is you and your love of stupid ideologues with fake issues......

commie said...

And the reality is that the baker is no artist....only in your mind does that argument work.....next comes the florist case, lets see how that works out.....since many flowers have both male and female organs......refusing to provide bouquets for gays is rather a stupid position...

caliphate4vr said...

Unlike you, I deplore bigotry like yours and so called holier than thou so called christians.

You really have a problem with people that have a moral compass, fatty. The baker, the florist have beliefs, they never denied service to gays or anyone else on a daily basis. It was only when they were asked to enter into a separate distinct contract outside of their normal daily operations that they said no.

And if you believe in freedom, they should be allowed to deny that service for whatever reason, like a baker should be concerned your obese ass might fall into another diabetic coma or need another artificial joint replacement

C.H. Truth said...

So assholes, I have expressed my exact stance here more than once and you know exactly what I feel...

Well apparently your stance is that you disagree with the USSC 7-2 decision.

And you feel judges should be able to allow some bakers to take objections to patron requests, while forcing other bakers to bake what they don't want.

Hypocrisy is obviously your stance.