Monday, November 20, 2017

Mueller investigating firing of Comey? So what?

We can fan the flames of conspiracies all we want, but at the end of the day the "reports" that Mueller is calling for information surrounding the firing of James Comey falls under the category of much ado about nothing. 

The reality is that Trump had the authority to fire Comey, had proper cause to fire Comey, and had proper documentation to fire Comey.  This was a textbook, c.y.a. corporate firing. Likely the sort of thing Donald Trump has done a hundred times. Whether the firing was considered justified by Robert Mueller, or whether Special counsel might believe there was an ulterior motive carries very little weight. 

Let's start with one simple reality: special counsel's have never had authority to indict or charge a President with a crime. In the case of Kenneth Starr, his report regarding Bill Clinton provided multiple charges that would have otherwise been "indictable" if not for the fact he was a sitting President. But rather than drawing up an indictment and arguing those points before the grand jury, the Starr report became a recommendation to Congress that these actions could be impeachable offenses. 

Moreover, the issues surrounding the President firing James Comey are not so much about the circumstances, but rather about the philosophical viewpoint of the constitutional powers of the Presidency, and the constitutional notion that those in the executive branch serve at the pleasure of the President.  So regardless of what information Mueller uncovers, or how those closer to the situation might have viewed things, it all comes down to Mueller drawing his own conclusions. That is where his authority ends.

The decision to impeach or not impeach is not in the hands of a special prosecutor, or special counsel, but resides solely in the House of Representatives. Which means that Mueller's authority on the matter of "obstruction" is limited to providing his single personal opinion in some form of report. But keeping in mind that we have approximately 230 people with law degrees serving in Congress right now, and that those serving in congress seem to have high opinions of themselves, I doubt many are waiting for Mueller to tell them how the constitution works. If Mueller were to come to the opinion that the firing was obstruction, such an opinion will be flat out rejected as moot by anyone who otherwise believes the firing was well within the President's authority. 

What the left really needs to remember here is that members of Congress are under no obligation to accept Mueller's opinion on any subject. But most certainly they are not required to substitute his philosophical opinions about the constitution for their own beliefs.     

Ultimately Mueller's investigation into the matter of the Comey firing becomes an exercise in futility unless he first convinces a large majority of Congress that President's do not (under the constitution) have authority to fire those who work for them. Given the large numbers of conservatives and even non-conservative legal and constitutional experts providing the opposite argument, that seems to be a tall order. 

19 comments:

Commonsense said...

I am more convinced than ever that Mueller is running out of reasons why his investigation should still exist.

Indy Voter said...

So what? Charles Manson is finally dead. That is worth celebrating.

wphamilton said...

This was a target of the investigation from the beginning, so I think that the news is that it's proceeded to that point. Your reasoning, that Trump has the authority to fire Comey and therefore cannot be obstruction, is not the end of the matter.

I think I've pointed out previously that having the authority to do something, while being legal under some circumstances, does not mean it cannot be illegal under other circumstances. That holds for CEO's, investment brokers, the President. They are looking at the circumstances, and will make recommendations depending on what they find there.

Anonymous said...

Rubbish

C.H. Truth said...

WP...

Do you not concede that those questions (both philosophical and tangible) are delegated to be answered by Congress?

Do you not concede that whether or not a President can fire an employee and whether or not James Comey deserved to be fired... is a question most everyone in Congress already has a decided answer for?

My point is that James Comey's report (while it might be a grand news story for whoever he decides to illegally leak it to) will ultimately not be relevant to whether or not Congress will impeach Trump.

wphamilton said...

Sure those questions will be taken up by Congress. Not "delegated to Congress" since it's in the Special Investigator's purview.

To be blunt, it is irrelevant that the President can legally fire an employee. No one is going to accuse Trump of "firing an employee" - it's not the question, and will never be the charge. The questions are, did he do it in order to squelch the investigation, and did he do it to prevent an investigation from looking into his own actions? Whether or not the action in isolation is legal, it may STILL be obstruction.

I'm sorry if it's the centerpiece argument of whatever your opinions come from, but it's obviously not swaying the investigators. You can cite "constitutional experts" to your heart's content but the fact still remains.
It's a specious argument, a sound-bite legal defense that cannot hold up to the full onslaught of a few seconds of desultory rebuttal.

wphamilton said...

My point is that James Comey's report (while it might be a grand news story for whoever he decides to illegally leak it to) will ultimately not be relevant to whether or not Congress will impeach Trump.

That IS the fervent hope of Trump and those in his inner circle. It will be relevant if there are independent corroborations that, for example, Trump pressured Comey to end investigations into events having Trump's involvement, ALONG WITH evidence that Trump reasonably believed could have criminal implications (establishing his motive and knowledge).

That would constitute obstruction or conspiracy, and Comey's reports and/or personal notes would be relevant. There are other criminal charges possible where those documents may or may not be relevant, and those charges could also lead to recommendations of impeachment. Naturally, Trump hopes that none of that actually happens. He hopes that nothing Comey says is ever relevant. But with Trump and his proxies trying to discredit Comey at every opportunity it's pretty clear that he's worried that they ARE going to be relevant.

C.H. Truth said...

WP...

Whether you like it or not, the issue being raised is entirely, 100%, about the inherent powers of the Presidency. Many constitutional law experts suggest that not only does a President have the right to fire any employee for any reason, he has the right to order the Justice Department or the FBI to either pursue or not to pursue a case.

Moreover... your baseline accusations simply do not fit the facts. Facts that you conveniently and consistently ignore.

Fact 1) James Comey was fired for cause.
Fact 2) Comey went before Congress and provided sworn testimony that the President was not a target of the investigation
Fact 3) Comey went before congress and provided sworn testimony that the President never attempted to to obstruct his investigation.


So your assumptions are simply wishful fodder. They don't exist. Every bit of sworn testimony evidence provided under oath by the FBI director who was in charge of the investigation... completely runs 180 degrees counter to your suggestions. You need the President to be criminally targeted. He wasn't. You need some form of evidence that he obstructed the investigation. There is none.


You may "SAY" that this isn't about the firing, but everything you argue boils back to the firing being the only piece of even slightly circumstantial evidence that the President committed the crime of obstruction.

You literally have nothing else... other than pretend theories that are not real.

wphamilton said...

Many constitutional law experts suggest that not only does a President have the right to fire any employee for any reason

Probably none of them suggest that the President has the right to fire any employee for illegal reasons.

wphamilton said...

CH, do you think it was illegal for Nixon to tape conversations in the Oval Office? Or did he have the right to record things?

C.H. Truth said...

WP...

There are lots of specific examples where taping people without their permission can leave you in legal jeopardy. Both civil and criminal. Even law enforcement must secure a warrant from a judge to tape people's conversations. We have plenty of examples of illegal wiretapping, or illegal recordings.

Are you saying that there are similar requirements to obtain a Judges warrant to fire someone with cause? Do you have examples of Presidents being impeached for firing people who worked for them?

wphamilton said...


There are lots of specific examples where taping people without their permission can leave you in legal jeopardy.


Bingo. And situations where it's perfectly fine. The same thing can be said for firing people. By your logic, Nixon should have been in the clear because he had the right to tape people.

Do you have examples of Presidents being impeached for firing people

Was Nixon about to be impeached for taping people? Or for obstruction?

Were there any examples of Presidents being impeached for taping people prior to Nixon? How is that relevant to anything?

C.H. Truth said...

How is that relevant to anything?

Because there ARE actually relevant laws and restrictions to taping conversations. You do HAVE to go to a judge to get permission in many cases.

But there are no said laws, restrictions, or a necessity to go to a Judge to get a warrant to fire someone.

____

This is a logical fallacy, WP. Think: just because a thumb is a finger, doesn't mean all fingers are thumbs.

Only in this case, just because some actions can be both legal and illegal, doesn't mean that "all" actions can be illegal.


Moreover the Nixon analogy doesn't cut it. The fact that he was the first President caught breaking the law as it pertained to his actions of wiretapping is irrelevant. It would have still been breaking the law whether he was President or not.

How many people do you know who have been arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced to Prison for firing someone? Especially considering that firing had ample reasoning, was well documented, recommended by immediate supervisors, and otherwise carried out according to normal procedures?

wphamilton said...

The tapes were not illegal CH. DC is one-party consent, and you do not have to go to a judge. It was illegal for Nixon to refuse to turn over the tapes to the Watergate investigator, because that was obstruction.

Obstruction is any action which corruptly influences or impedes the administration of justice. It does not matter if the action is legal. Your entire argument has no legal basis with respect to obstruction.

wphamilton said...

BTW, the Sarbanes Oxley Act criminalizes firing of people for certain reasons, and there have been a number of prosecutions under this act. For firing someone.

So yes, people have been prosecuted for firing someone, but no, Trump will never be charged with firing Comey. He could face charges for obstruction, if he had corrupt intent when firing Comey. Is that clear enough?

C.H. Truth said...

It was illegal for Nixon to refuse to turn over the tapes to the Watergate investigator, because that was obstruction.

Which is always illegal... unless your name is Clinton.

But what does violating the straight ahead letter of the obstruction laws have to do with someone being fired?


BTW, the Sarbanes Oxley Act criminalizes firing of people for certain reasons

I am well aware of SOX regulations (since I support financial ERP software). SOX create regulations that make it more difficult to engage in fraudulent accounting. Unless that firing included some pay off that was somehow not properly disclosed or otherwise involved some sort of accounting malpractice, I am not seeing it.

And it certainly would not apply to firing someone with cause, proper reasoning, proper documention, and within normal guidelines.


At the end of the day...


Comey stated under oath that Trump was not under investigation and that Comey told Trump multiple times that he was not under investigation...

Comey stated under oath that Trump never did anything that "obstructed" the investigation....


So you CONTINUE to push the concept of obstruction based ENTIRELY the legal firing of James Comey... because you not only have no other evidence.

All the tangible evidence (FBI Director sworn testimony) proves no obstruction.

wphamilton said...

Now that's a stretch iCH - "So you CONTINUE to push the concept of obstruction based ENTIRELY the legal firing of James Comey... because you not only have no other evidence."

The evidence you should be looking for is that which establishes corrupt intent, and we've seen a whole lot of that already. We have also seen a pattern of deception around these events, which involves senior campaign and administration officials. He needs to tie Trump directly into it, and if he does all of this hard evidence, could bury Trump.

C.H. Truth said...

The evidence you should be looking for is that which establishes corrupt intent, and we've seen a whole lot of that already

So you disagree with Comey's sworn testimony that Trump did not interfere or try to obstruct... based on your personal speculation that Trump has "corrupt intent".

He needs to tie Trump directly into it

Actually to prove obstruction, he will will need to prove Trump is guilty of obstruction beyond a reasonable doubt.

Your base line attitude appears to be that the President is guilty (because you just know he is). That he needs to be considered guilty until proven innoncent beyond all reasonable doubt. Therefore, if Mueller can show a reasonable doubt as to his claims of innocence... then that is all that is needed to put him away!


Nothing can ever "take back" the fact that Mueller stated under oath, after his term was completed that Trump was never a target, that Trump knew this, and that Trump never interfered.

Your theories only work if you completely 100% ignore those sworn statements. You know it. I know it. I am sure Mueller knows it. If there wasn't such blind hatred towards Donald Trump, nobody would be even talking about this.

wphamilton said...

So you disagree with Comey's sworn testimony,

What did I tell you about that, just days before his testimony? What did Trump say about his testimony just days after?

Yet, CH, it is completely wrong to say that Comey's verbal testimony cleared Trump. In fact he suggested that the case against Trump was an open question which should be investigated.

" I don't think it's for me to say whether the conversation I had with the president was an effort to obstruct. I took it as a very disturbing thing, very concerning, but that's a conclusion I'm sure the special counsel will work towards to try and understand what the intention was there"