Tuesday, October 4, 2016

Polls acting like gas prices?

One of the things I have noticed over the years is that gas prices come down very slowly, but when they go back up, the jump is usually substantial.

4.20, 4,18, 4.16, 4,11, 4.07, 4.01, 3.96. 3.95, 3.94, 3,92, 3,89, 3.87, 3.84, 3.83, 3.81.... 4.79

I have noticed the same thing with much of the Presidential polling. Every time there is a lull, it seems that gravity slowly pulls the race back into the margin of error, then something happens and "boom" - you see massive immediate polling changes in favor of Hillary Clinton. The post convention "bounce" - the post debate "bounce" - plus a handful of other various scandal "bounces" surrounding some major revelation about Donald Trump.

The question becomes, what is the actual "norm" here. Is it a close race with both candidates leading in national polls, and a handful of states within a point or two... or is it a three to four point lead for Hillary Clinton, and the "firewall" states that seem just a few points out of reach.

I know the prognosticator pundits do not like the tracking polls, and they certainly don't like the LA Times polls. But those polls have been much more consistent and have not shown the wild changes that most of your traditional media polls have been showing. The main difference between these tracking polls and the traditional polling is that these tracking polls generally control their demographics, and in the case of the LA Times, they actually control the sample.

In other words, no matter what is happening in the news... many of these tracking polls will sample the same demographic percentages, and the LA Times literally poll the same sample of people over and over. This makes the assumption that the overall demographics of who is going to vote is pretty much set, and any changes to the polls suggests changes within those demographics (improvements within Party, with the opposition Party or better results with independents). In the case of the LA Times, it literally requires someone to change their minds in order to change the ultimate results.

On the flip side, the more traditional pollsters will allow the demographics to move from poll to poll. This suggests that movement in a poll may reflect that the demographics have changes as much as there are changes "within" the demographics. To put this in perspective, when adjusted for demographics (my projection spreadsheet that averages polling within each demographic), all of the post debate movement has moved that number by less than a point.

Now I am not suggesting which is right or which is wrong. My personal opinion is that while weighing for a projected sample will more accurately project overall movement, I do understand that there may be movement in demographics as well. My issue is the proven phenomenon that someone who hasn't changed their mind (about voting and who they are voting for) may still be less likely to answer a survey in the wake of bad press or other negative happening for their candidate (which would explain the large polling bounces that generally don't hold). People like Nate Silver have written about this, while still suggesting that the actual bumps are real.

Bottom line: As of today, Trump still leads in the LA Times tracking poll, the People's Pundit tracking poll, the UPI/CVoter tracking poll. In fact, these three have hardly moved since the debate. Clinton leads by one (down from three a couple of days ago) in the new Rasmussen tracking poll.

So while conventional wisdom once again wants to make this a Clinton election to lose, the overall sum of the whole makes me wonder if what we have seen is another media driven "bounce" that will ultimately fall prey to gravity. As I stated a couple of weeks ago when Nate Silver showed the race virtually even... we are always just a "moment in time"... and the only constant in the election has been change.

15 comments:

Anonymous said...


well, trump draws tens of thousands, while granny can barely fill a handicapped rest room stall.

anecdotal evidence i know, but i'm with myballs - i think it counts for something, and i also believe that most trump supporters are at least keeping their support to themselves, or lying to the pollsters.

plus, when your poll samples are as out of whack as Elon's recent 44D/33R party registration split you have to wonder if polls have much of any value this cycle at the presidential level.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Let's see, the last time many of you were saying the polls were all wrong and everyone would be greatly surprised -- Obama was elected President instead of Romney.

C.H. Truth said...

James - I was not wrong in 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2014... and not wrong in 2012 when Obama beat Romney.

The question right now (where you have almost two separate sets of polls showing two separate things) - is whether or not the polls converge (again) or whether they remain where they are (split).

Just to keep this in perspective, whenever these two sets of polls tend to converge - it's always around the margin of error, even or there about sort of period. When they seem to be be off balances is when some of them jump several points over some event while others do not.

I think it boils down to exactly how volatile people actually believe this election is... are there really millions of people on fence jumping back and forth?

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

I didn't say you were saying that, Ch. I said "many" of those here were saying it. It was even predicted that I would be DEVASTATED by Obama's defeat.

But as for jumping back and forth, one of the recent polls saw a huge slide toward Clinton among independents, and even a surprisingly dramatic lessening of support for Trump among white males.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Post debate, that is.

KD, said...

I want to congratulate the US Media for getting Hillary Elected, for running stories that are meaningless.

What do voters care about:

1, economy and jobs
2, terrorism
3, immigration


C.H. Truth said...

Actually James - according to the demographic averages, Trump went from about eight points up with Independents to up around seven since I last updated the spreadsheet... so that included most of the post-debate polls, many replacing the pre-debate polls from the same pollster.

One point is not exactly a "huge slide" - but I am sure it's a big narrative in some circles.

Anonymous said...

Blogger C.H. Truth said...
James - I was not wrong in 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2014... and not wrong in 2012 when Obama beat Romney.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

no you weren't. but i distinctly remember many prominent left leaning "journalists" looking very silly when they were calling 04 for kerry (by a landslide!) based upon shoddy early exit polling.

Anonymous said...

One point is not exactly a "huge slide" - but I am sure it's a big narrative in some circles.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

i think teegen goddard got a thrill up his leg.

KD< HuffPO breaking news said...

OFF TOPIC< SORRY BREAKING NEWS FROM HUFFPO


Guccifer 2.0 has Hacked the Clinton Crime Family Foundation Financial Records.

OH OH

Commonsense said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Commonsense said...

well, trump draws tens of thousands, while granny can barely fill a handicapped rest room stall.

anecdotal evidence i know, but i'm with myballs - i think it counts for something


If nothing else it's an indication of enthusiasm and turnout.

And that is pretty significant.

KD, Win on issues said...

When Mike Pence Was Sworn In As Governor Of Indiana In January 2013, The Unemployment Rate Of Indiana Was 8.4%, And The Total Unemployed Was At 266,731. (Indiana Statewide Statistics, The Bureau Of Labor Statistics, Accessed 7/22/16)

As Of Last Month The Unemployment Rate Of Indiana Has Been Nearly Cut In Half To 4.8%, And The Total Unemployed Has Shrunk To 163,072. (Indiana Statewide Statistics, The Bureau Of Labor Statistics, Accessed 7/22/16)

Meanwhile, Tim Kaine Has A Record Of Skyrocketing Unemployment In Virginia

When Tim Kaine Was Sworn In As Governor Of Virginia In January 2006, The Unemployment Rate Of Virginia Was A Low 3.2%, And The Total Unemployed Was At 125,379. (Virginia Statewide Statistics, The Bureau Of Labor Statistics, Accessed 7/22/16)

When Tim Kaine Left The Governor's Office In January 2010, The Unemployment Rate Of Virginia Had Skyrocketed To 7.4%, And The Total Unemployed Had Increased To 304,628. (Virginia Statewide Statistics, The Bureau Of Labor Statistics, Accessed 7/22/16) "

Number one issue on voters minds , jobs.

wphamilton said...

I think it boils down to exactly how volatile people actually believe this election is... are there really millions of people on fence jumping back and forth?

The volatility is intuitively wrong. The poll result may or may not be wrong, but when I see a particularly volatile poll I immediately suspect that something is flawed in the questions or sampling method. Anecdotally, every poll calling cold at my house involves a very strong degree of self-selection (almost always selecting to decline to participate). But if someone is particularly stirred up by some recent gaff or revelation, they are more likely to participate than someone who doesn't really care about that particular news. That self-selection, if true, would lead to more volatile results, depending on how those people are selected and contacted. I consider that to be a distortion, with flawed results.

For those who didn't quite catch it, a poll can be terribly flawed yet still, from random chance alone, have a realistic result from time to time.

Indy Voter said...

Yep. Hillary sure got a boost when she had to get carried into her vehicle on 9/11.