Wednesday, January 22, 2020

The "rhetorical" impeachment...

I have made the argument again and again that our politicians, media, and even our younger generations are becoming less and less interested in fact, and more and more interested in bending facts with rhetoric. In fact, many specifically reject the age-old notion that everyone is entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts.



It seems that in the year 2020, everyone is entitled to create not only their own opinions, but their own facts. This is especially true when objective facts might offend someone, or is deemed to be somehow "unfair" based on the collective emotions and feelings of the woke culture. Just try to tell someone that life begins at conception or that there are only two possible combinations of chromosomes (XX, XY). Doesn't matter if objective science and biology backs you up, you are liable to be fired, sued, or worse just for stating what most people would have (just a few years ago) consider to be a fact.

Now politicians have used rhetorical arguments to levels that brush up against absurdity. We learn to expect it, temper it, and to some degree drown it out, because generally it's just fodder on a Sunday morning talk show, cable news, or political advertisement. But what we are seeing today is not just political rhetoric being argued, but we are seeing political rhetoric being used to impeach a duly elected sitting President. To be perfectly clear, this is a rhetorical impeachment that relies entirely on rhetorical arguments.

Lets start with the basic concept that the President "withheld" funds from Ukraine for "personal gain" and look to see where fact has been replaced with rhetoric

  • Fact: The funds were not withheld, but rather provided to Ukraine within the time frame necessary to satisfy any requirements of the authorization of Financial aid. To argue otherwise, would be to argue that the IRS can arrest you for withholding your payments, even if you paid them prior to the April 15th deadline. The fact is that you are not legally withholding payment to someone until you have gone past the due date or deadline for that payment. To even argue that the payments to the Ukrainians were "delayed" is a semantic argument that implies that there were some arbitrary deadlines to be met, when in fact, no such deadline existed.  
  • Fact: The Ukrainians did not investigate the Bidens, nor did they announce any investigations into the Bidens. While the Biden name came up in conversation between the US and Ukrainian Presidents, it was in conjunction with discussions about the Prosecutor General who was fired and how the previous Ukrainian administration had investigations (including Burisma) closed down shortly afterwards. We can provide an imaginary scenario where the Ukrainians did announce investigations, and we can provide a more recent tin foil hat theory that it was Lev Parnas who was the official go between, but the actual FACT remains that none of it actually happened. 
  • Fact: The President never asked for anything of "personal value". Personal value, as it legally pertains to political bribery or political favors is just that, personal. It would include things like personal payments, personal gifts, favors or gifts for friends or relatives, and other things not related to politics. The rhetoric here is that a Ukrainian investigation that might have drawn the Biden name through the mud would help Trump in his reelection efforts. Factually, that would be of political (not personal) benefit to the President. That (according to the laws) is not a distinction without a difference, but rather a very legal and very real distinction that is being muddied up in the name of rhetoric. By the same logic, the House is engaged in a corrupt abuse of power by impeaching the President, because the actual impeachment might harm his Presidential reelection chances. Does anyone want to go there?
  • Fact: There was no "quid pro quo". While many people have testified that they believed (at least for a a while) that there was a deal in place between the two Presidents, both Presidents deny such a deal ever took place, and there is literally nobody who has testified that they have any first hand knowledge of such a deal between Trump and Zelensky. Moreover, even if there had been a "deal" made that involved "quid pro quo" (which there is no proof of), the FACT is that the alleged give and take never took place. It. Just. Didn't. Happen. 

The FACT is that the military aid was not withheld, but rather provided within the legal timelines for dispersing the aid. The FACT is that nothing was provided in return for that military aid. The FACT is that the President neither asked for or received anything of personal value. All the rest is little more than political rhetoric, dangerously used to impeach a duly elected President. This is what happens when a society and culture decides to reject the notion of objective fact as being the best means to resolve disagreement or conflict.

91 comments:

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

FACT: In Europe Trump is saying he would prefer a longer trial with witnesses, but he will leave that up to the Senate.

FACT: He is lying. He is doing everything he can to prevent witnesses from testifying.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

FACT: Military aid was withheld UNTIL it was becoming clear (from the whistle blower and from others) that Trump had taken an impeachable act by withholding it AND it was made clear that his withholding was itself an illegal action for which he had no authority.

FACT: Zelensky was on the verge of reluctantly interfering in American politics by complying with Trump's request when he learned that the aid had been released and so he did not have to.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

FACT: budget Officials Laid Groundwork to Freeze Ukraine Aid

“Officials at the White House’s Office of Management and Budget were laying the groundwork to freeze military aid to Ukraine the night before President Trump’s controversial phone call with the Ukrainian President, newly released, heavily redacted emails show,” CNN reports.

“On the evening of July 24, the night before the call, OMB officials shared a ‘Ukraine Prep Memo’ with Michael Duffey — the office’s associate director of national security programs, a political appointee and the budget official who would play a direct role in carrying out Trump’s funding freeze.”

cowardly king obama said...

FACT: Trump said he could go either way

FACT: The House didn't allow him to call witnesses

FACT: The House said they had a overwhelming case with undisputed facts.

FACT: Present it and vote

cowardly king obama said...

* responding to:

James said...
FACT: In Europe Trump is saying he would prefer a longer trial with witnesses, but he will leave that up to the Senate.


FACT: Trump said he could go either way

FACT: The House didn't allow him to call witnesses

FACT: The House said they had a overwhelming case with undisputed facts.

FACT: Present it and vote


ROFLMFAO at the desperation !!!

cowardly king obama said...

* an (for the chalkboard monitor)

ROFLMFAO !!!

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

FACT: TRUMP IS LYING. HE IS DOING EVERYTHING HE CAN TO KEEP FURTHER WITNESSES FROM TESTIFYING.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

MORE WORMS FROM THE CAN OF WORMS

Trump’s Inaugural Sued for Violating Non-Profit Status
January 22, 2020 at 9:40 am EST

“Washington D.C. Attorney General Karl Racine sued President Trump’s inaugural committee and business, alleging that the committee violated its nonprofit status by spending more than $1 million to book a ballroom at Trump’s D.C. hotel that its staff knew was overpriced and that it barely used,” the Washington Post reports.

“During the lead-up to Trump’s January 2017 inauguration, the committee booked the hotel ballroom for $175,000 a day plus more than $300,000 in food and beverage costs, over the objections of its own event planner.”

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Most Maine Voters Think Trump Abused His Office

A new Garin-Hart-Yang (D) poll in Maine finds 53% of voters think President Trump is guilty of abusing the power of his office for his personal benefit by withholding military aid to Ukraine.

Among independent voters — a key group for Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME), who is up for re-election — 57% said Trump is guilty of abusing the power of his office.

C.H. Truth said...

Well James...

Again, nothing was withheld.
Withheld vs paid are binary terms.
It either was withheld or paid.

It cannot be both!


Which was it?

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

We take a break from POS "pastor" james political_lire SPAM dump for a response to his own actual "statement"

Trump wants this over with as does the American people.

The House job was to build the case, vote and present it to the Senate.

They did and passed an "overwhelming" "urgent" and "undisputed" case.

Then they sat on their hands for a month scared schiffless.

They are obviously worried how flimsy and unsubstantiated their case is.

And are now trying to throw shit against the wall to see if anything sticks.

The TRUTH is on Trumps side but delay is not.

GET ON WITH IT.

C.H. Truth said...

FACT: TRUMP IS LYING. HE IS DOING EVERYTHING HE CAN TO KEEP FURTHER WITNESSES FROM TESTIFYING.

James... you seem a little worked up? Are you upset with all of the 53-47 votes yesterday? Expected more GOP support for Schiff and Nadler?

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

How Democrats Won Day One of the Impeachment Trial

PLAYBOOK SAYS:
“Substantively, Senate Republicans defeated every effort by Senate Democrats to alter the rules of the impeachment trial to allow for guaranteed access to witnesses and documents.

“Politically, though, there is some upside for Democrats. If you accept the argument that President Trump is likely going to be acquitted, isn’t it better for Democrats to own no part of the trial, so they can call it a sham and beat Republicans over the head with it later this year? They will lose these procedural fights, complain loudly about it and wave the trial in the faces of vulnerable Republicans as an example of the party’s fealty to Trump.”
___________

I SAY: Playbook is right. The Republicans' arguments were based on politics, not truth. The Democrats' arguments were based on politics AND truth. Even with Trump's acquittal, those truths will not go away. So this whole matter will not be over until the election.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

LOL Worked up? No, Ch. I expected the Repugs to do exactly what they did.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Why are you so opposed to further witnesses, Ch?
Scared even more of the truth will come out?

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Top Democrats ALL Beat Trump In New Poll
January 22, 2020 at 10:20 am EST

A new SurveyUSA national poll finds every leading Democrat beating President Trump in a head-to-head general election match up:

Bernie Sanders leads Trump, 52% to 43%
Joe Biden leads Trump, 50% to 43%
Mike Bloomberg leads Trump, 49% to 42%
Elizabeth Warren leads Trump, 48% to 45%
Pete Buttigieg leads Trump, 47% to 44%

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Maybe Trump should ask the Chinese and the Russians and the Bhutanians to investigate Bernie and Joe and Mike and Elizabeth and Pete.

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

More on Schiff and his "new" witness

Mark Hemingway
@Heminator


Schff has been regularly dishonest for years now, and yet he consistently gets a free pass from all the same people who claim to be appalled by Trump's dishonesty. "Schiff may have mischaracterized Parnas evidence, documents show" https://politi.co/3awpjTU via
@politico

Myballs said...

Oh please. Every dem manager could've shit his pants at the podium and James would still declare them the winners.

Fact: Schiff and Nadler got their asses handed to them by cippilone and sekulow.

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

thebradfordfile™
@thebradfordfile

Hunter Biden cannot testify in the Senate trial next Wednesday. He will be in court in Arkansas explaining to the judge why he has violated court orders to provide financial details in his paternity case.

Why would Hunter be hiding his financial information?
---
Adam Schiff seems confused why Hunter Biden is relevant to this sham impeachment trial. Does he not know Hunter is the crack addict son of the VP who was enriching himself in Ukraine--and exactly why Trump was asking about corruption in Ukraine?
---
LMAO.

Adam Schiff brought up the great Russian collusion hoax of 2016 in the impeachment trial. He can't keep track of his own conspiracy theories.
---
If Adam Schiff keeps lying during the trial--he should be charged with "obstructing congress."

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

MARK SIMONE
@MarkSimoneNY

The public is trying to figure out what the hell Democrats are talking about when they yell "he withheld aid to Ukraine" as if we actually owed Ukraine $400,000,000. Obama withheld military aid to Ukraine for his entire 8 years, even when they were invaded by Russia.

and Trump provided it...

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

THIS SCARES THE HOLY SHIT OUT OF ME

Democratic Women Gear Up for 2020

A new American University poll finds 39% of Democratic likely women voters said they’d be more involved in this year’s political issues or campaigns. That compares with just 23% of Republican women.

“That’s a warning sign for the GOP, which has been losing female voters to the Democratic Party at significant rates over the last few cycles.”

A new The Skimm poll finds millennial women would vote for the Democratic candidate over the Republican candidate by a 2-1 margin.

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

Rep Andy Biggs
@RepAndyBiggsAZ


"If I showed up in any court in this country, and I said: ‘Judge, my case is overwhelming, but I’m not ready to go yet. I need more evidence before I can make my case;’ I would get thrown out in two seconds.

And that’s exactly what should happen here." - Pat Cipollone


owning the POS "pastor" and waterboy james boswell, normal illinois

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

GregGutfeld
@greggutfeld


how will the media make it appear that America gives two shits about this, tomorrow? Will there be polling? Will they interview people on the street? will they try to forget no one could identify Adam Schiff on Jeopardy?hould happen here." - Pat Cipollone

owning the POS "pastor" and waterboy james boswell, normal illinois

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

Oops, going to fast
ROFLMFAO !!!

GregGutfeld
@greggutfeld


how will the media make it appear that America gives two shits about this, tomorrow? Will there be polling? Will they interview people on the street? will they try to forget no one could identify Adam Schiff on Jeopardy?


owning the POS "pastor" and waterboy james boswell, normal illinois

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

Josh Hawley
@HawleyMO


It is amazing to watch Adam Schiff practically shove his co-managers aside to get to the microphone. His plan seems to be to keep delaying the ACTUAL TRIAL just to hear himself talk

owning the POS "pastor" and waterboy james boswell, normal illinois

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Pretty upset with how many women are leaving the Republicans, eh?

But this is so knee slapping funny I have to repeat it:
____________

Top Democrats ALL Beat Trump In New Poll

A new SurveyUSA national poll finds every leading Democrat beating President Trump in a head-to-head general election match up:

Bernie Sanders leads Trump, 52% to 43%
Joe Biden leads Trump, 50% to 43%
Mike Bloomberg leads Trump, 49% to 42%
Elizabeth Warren leads Trump, 48% to 45%
Pete Buttigieg leads Trump, 47% to 44%
__________

COMMENT:
Maybe Trump should ask the Chinese and the Russians and the Bhutanians to investigate Bernie and Joe and Mike and Elizabeth and Pete.

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

Top Democrats ALL Beat Trump In New Poll

WOW TRUMP IS DOING MUCH BETTER THAN THE POLLS THE DAY BEFORE THE 2016 ELECTION !!!

no wonder the lying POS "pastor" has gone insane

ROFLMFAO !!!

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

* and "pastor" your dementia has kicked in

you already copy/pasted that from political_lire earlier


owning the POS "pastor" and waterboy james boswell, normal illinois

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

I said I was repeating it on purpose, cause it's so funny.

MEANWHILE

Impeachment Trial Timeline

The organizing resolution for the Senate impeachment trial of President Trump suggests the following schedule:

January 22, 23 and 24: House managers make their case

January 25, 27 and 28: White House defense

January 29 and 30: Questions from Senators

January 31: Vote on witnesses and new documents?

February 3: Iowa caucuses

February 4: State of the Union

It’s quite possible this will change, but that’s what we know now.--Taegan Goddard

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

MEANWHILE

Trump is lying in Devos, Switzerland, claiming he would like for Bolton, Mulveney, Pompeo and even himself to testify, but it might be a problem with national security.

Oh, but Mr. President, you are so TRANSPARENT. You have nothing to hide! Let them all testify and DO testify yourself. (We could use the laugh.)

C.H. Truth said...

James...

What about the Bidens!

Is sure seems that Schiff believes that there is something MAJOR and CAREER THREATENING that needs to be hidden from the public.

Otherwise Schiff would be demanding they be called to clear their fine names!

What are they hiding!??!

PoliticalWire.com said...

Reports that people close to the Bidens say that Joe will be forced to drop out of the race if his Ukrainian ties are exposed. Schiff and the Democrats will do anything to prevent the testimony!

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Let the Bidens testify. And let Bolton, Mulveney, and Pompeo, and Trump himself testify.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

LOL And of course Politicalwire didn't say that.

anonymous said...


Is sure seems that Schiff believes that there is something MAJOR and CAREER THREATENING


Especially true for trump.....bidens, not so much......>>BWAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

JAMES'S FUCKING DADDY said...

james said...
LOL And of course Politicalwire didn't say that.


Good thing you "corrected". If Trump has lied 15,000 times you and them have lied 45,000 times. Just for one minor 3 year obsession did anyone go back and adjust all the Trump/Russian collusion lies and change them from Trump lies to media lies ? And Adam Schiff apparently doesn't know the meaning of truth, he even lies to the Senate. Without penalty. YET.

And when you are calling witnesses add Schiff and the "whistleblower" who are the foundation of this Ukrainian call bullshit, both Bidens who are the corruption Trump was addressing and Atkinson who all need to testify. At least. Under oath.

C.H. Truth said...

James...

You still don't seem to get it, do you?

The GOP doesn't think that asking Ukraine to investigate Burisma (or even Biden's connection to it) is an impeachable offense.

So ask yourself... what possible good would it do to bring forth more witnesses to continue to try to prove something that doesn't change how anyone is going to vote?


The GOP (and Trump) on the other hand, have lots to gain from getting the Bidens or the Whistleblower or Schiff to testify. If reports are true, then the Whistleblower is an anti-Trump player who has been trying to bring him down for years, and was conspiring prior to his report to the IG with Schiff and Democrats in Congress.

That would actually be blatantly illegal and I would think that the DOJ would go after him full steam ahead!

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

CH SAYS:
The GOP doesn't think that asking Ukraine to investigate Burisma (or even Biden's connection to it) is an impeachable offense.

JAMES ASKS:
Denying funds to a needy ally unless that ally will help the President get dirt on a political opponent is not impeachable?

First, Trump's stopping of military aid which had been approved for a needy ally by the Legislative Branch was itself an illegal act for which the Executive Branch had no authority.

Second, doing that in an attempt to coerce an ally to involve itself in our American electoral process -- if that is not an impeachable offense, nothing is.
___________

Trump not only did that, but lied about it, claiming that was not really his intent.

Let us see whether witnesses will FURTHER, INDISPUTABLY clarify that that WAS his intent.

Got that?

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Putting it a little better:

Let us see whether additional firsthand witnesses will FURTHER, INDISPUTABLY clarify that that WAS his intent.

Commonsense said...

You are now grasping at straws James. If this was a real trial, these chargers would already be thrown out and Schiff would face sanctions from the bar.

Caliphate4vr said...


Blogger C.H. Truth said...
James...

You still don't seem to get it, do you?


No he’s stupid

C.H. Truth said...

Denying funds to a needy ally unless that ally will help the President get dirt on a political opponent is not impeachable?

They didn't deny funds James. They were released. There was also never any investigation into the Bidens, but rather an investigation into Burisma and whether or not that investigation was prematurely ended as part of a cover up. The only way that affects the election is:

1) Biden would have to win the nomination
2) Then something substantial and tangible comes from it that would legitimately implicate Biden.

And then shutting it down so we do not find out about it, would become election interference!


Moreover, to argue that a foreign power cannot assist Americans in an investigation of a candidate or someone associated with a Presidential Candidate... requires a VERY SHORT MEMORY!

As Donald Trump himself was investigated by the Obama administration, and that Administration reached out to Ukraine DURING THE GENERAL ELECTION CAMPAIGN for assistance in investigating Paul Manafort... and then Ukraine leaked it to the American press and Manafort was forced to resign!


So explain to us James... how it was perfectly acceptable for Obama to oversee, ask for updates, and solicit foreign help in investigating the GOP political candidate President...

but you want to impeach Trump because he asked about Burisma?

Explain why it's not just plain stupid hypocrisy?


Oh wait... my bad. You won't answer these questions.

Because you are an F-N coward!

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Denying funds to a needy ally unless that ally will help the President get dirt on a political opponent is not impeachable?


CH: "They didn't deny funds James. They were released."

Who released them, Ch? And when?

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

PUTTING IT ANOTHER WAY:

Who denied the funds and when?

Who released the funds and when?

Commonsense said...

I know this is hard for you James but if the funds were released they were not denied.

Much like sex it's a binary condition.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Let Ch answer the question.
I don't want to accuse him of being a F-N coward.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

So let me repeat:

WHO denied the funds and when?

WHO released the funds and when?

C.H. Truth said...

James...

Why don't you answer my questions?

Obviously there is no good answer, not even a believable reasonable answer, or you would give it to me.

So thank you James for admitting that you are simply a hypocrite who couldn't care less if Obama used the DOJ, the FBI, and Ukraine to investigate Trump and his campaign in 2016...

But want to impeach Trump for something that never happened.


I guess hypocrisy and avoiding answering questions must be taught as part of your religion? The Reverend Hypocrite from the church of dishonesty!

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Obama is not under impeachment, Ch, nor is Biden.
Trump is under impeachment.

I SAID: Denying funds to a needy ally unless that ally will help the President get dirt on a political opponent is not impeachable?


YOU SAID: They didn't deny funds James. They were released.

I AM NOW ASKING YOU, QUITE SWIMPLY:

WHO denied the funds and when?
WHO released the funds and when?

Why won't you answer those simple questions, Ch?
If you do not answer them, I will answer them for you.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

SIMPLY

C.H. Truth said...

Sorry Reverend Hypocrite from the Church of Dishonesty ...

It doesn't matter whether or not Obama is "under impeachment".

The question stands.

Why was it okay for Obama to enlist his DOJ, his FBI, and solicit the assistance of Ukraine in order to investigate the Republican candidate for President and his staff... using phony information to garner FISA warrants to spy, using anti-Trump deep state players to push information, and likely encouraged the Ukrainians to leak the news of their Manafort investigation to the Press?


Why does that matter so much less than something that NEVER HAPPENED!

What is your infatuation with fantasy!!!



The Ukrainian military aid was ACTUALLY PROVIDED to Ukraine under the TRUMP Administration, which never actually happened once in the eight years under Obama.

And I have another question James...

What was the DATE that the Ukrainian military aid was supposed to be released by according to you? Was that DATE actually missed? Or are you just barking at the moon like a crazy hypocrite with NO ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE of any of this!




Your only strategy is to ignore the real criminal actions from the previous administration that has stained our FBI forever... and want to focus on something

THAT DIDN'T EVEN HAPPEN!

anonymous said...


Your only strategy is to ignore the real criminal actions from the previous administration


And you assholes had 6 years of complete control and investigations that proved shit you disingenuous piece of crap, Lil Scotty!!!!!!

Get back to me when trump is perp walked into custody when his term is over.....BWAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

C.H. Truth said...

Sorry Denny...

Have you not been paying attention to the IG reports and criminal referrals of the FBI under Obama? Pretty much everyone at the top of the FBI, has been fired, demoted, referred for criminal charges, or otherwise disciplined. The entire FISA court is now under scrutiny and there are people who want it completely dismantled.

It's a stain that will never go away...

Meanwhile you are going to be sorely disappointed if you believe Trump will be arrested or charged with some crime when he gets out of office! Deeply bitterly disappointed!

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Barking without knowing what I am talking about?

Well, Ch, the simple fact is that

It was TRUMP who withheld funds from Ukraine.
It was the STATE DEPARTMENT that overruled him and released those funds, earlier than he said he did.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-11-09/state-department-freed-ukraine-money-before-trump-says-he-did

anonymous said...

if you believe Trump will be arrested or charged with some crime when he gets out of office! Deeply bitterly disappointed!

And I will be LMFAO at you when he is.....Paybacks are a bitch and you and your asshole will not be immune like you pray for.....BWAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Pompeo Says He’s Willing to Testify

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said that he would testify in the Senate impeachment trial against President Trump if compelled by law, The Hill reports.

Said Pompeo: “If I am legally required to testify, as I’ve said before, I’d be happy to do it.”

C.H. Truth said...

So Reverend Hypocrite of the Church of Dishonesty!

You obviously have no good answer for your hypocrisy or you would give it. But we all expect that out of you. If you cannot cut and paste a response from WaPo or the NYT, you have no ability to respond.


So we can all just figure you have no answer and I win that argument by default. What Obama did to Trump is much worse than what Trump didn't do to anyone.

Thank you for your surrender! And I accept your defeat!




But I digress... If Mike Pompeo wants to testify, then I would bet you that Trump and the GOP would be happy to make that trade available (Pompeo for Hunter, Joe, Adam, or Eric).

Pompeo is a Trump loyalist with aspirations, and many put him on the short list of people who might run in 2024. Testifying in any way that comes across as "against Trump" would drive a stake in the heart of any of his dreams and ambitions.

In other words, if he wants to testify he will be there to do the bidding of his boss and his Party, not the bidding of the House Democrats!

C.H. Truth said...

Oh... and Defeated and Humiliated James...

You don't even realize that you are just further proving the point that the aid was not actually ever withheld (or according to your story) even potentially able to be withheld.

So according to your evidence, not only did Trump not have the authority to withhold it (and of course that would mean that the aid was never officially held up because he was incapable of doing so) but it was actually released by the State Department, meaning it was never his decision to make!


So your argument just took a turn for the worse!

If the State Department (not the President) was responsible for releasing the aid, then the State Department would be responsible (not the President) if it was not released in a timely fashion!


So apparently... you further ruined your own argument!

Not only did the President not withhold the funds!

But he couldn't withhold the funds because that was up to the State Dept!

So how could he possibly be held responsible for something that he didn't do and (according to you) didn't even have authority to "pretend" to do?


Thank you for further proving my point!!!!!


F-N loser!!!

Caliphate4vr said...

Denying funds to a needy ally unless that ally will help the President get dirt on a political opponent is not impeachable?

Pederast were they an ally when Russia annexed Crimea during Obunghole’s reign?

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Yes, they were an ally and Obama and the EU took the kind of action they considered best under the circumstances.

Caliphate4vr said...

That allowed the annexation of an ally’s sovereign soil.

You are a fucking fool

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

C.H. Truth said...
So Reverend Hypocrite of the Church of Dishonesty!
You obviously have no good answer for your hypocrisy or you would give it. But we all expect that out of you. If you cannot cut and paste a response from WaPo or the NYT, you have no ability to respond.
So we can all just figure you have no answer and I win that argument by default. What Obama did to Trump is much worse than what Trump didn't do to anyone.

I don't know what Obama did to Trump. I only know that you want to deflect from what Trump did by referring to the Bidens and Burisma, which I consider so irrelevant as to deserve no answer.

Thank you for your surrender! And I accept your defeat!

No surrender from me. No defeat either. Don't take credit for something you did not achieve.

But I digress... If Mike Pompeo wants to testify, then I would bet you that Trump and the GOP would be happy to make that trade available (Pompeo for Hunter, Joe, Adam, or Eric).

I have no objection, but it would be trading nothing for something, the something being the relevant testimony that Pompeo could offer, provided he would not lie, for the Bidens' testimony, who would not have to lie, for there was no cover-up there.)

Pompeo is a Trump loyalist with aspirations, and many put him on the short list of people who might run in 2024. Testifying in any way that comes across as "against Trump" would drive a stake in the heart of any of his dreams and ambitions.
In other words, if he wants to testify he will be there to do the bidding of his boss and his Party, not the bidding of the House Democrats!

So are you saying that the bidding of his "boss" and Party would include lying to hide what his role in this matter really was? I thought his testimony would be impartially and truthfully to establish whatever facts he knows.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

C.H. Truth also said...
Oh... and Defeated and Humiliated James...

I don't see HIM, and I am looking in a mirror..

You don't even realize that you are just further proving the point that the aid was not actually ever withheld (or according to your story) even potentially able to be withheld.

It WAS withheld, CH. That is an undeniable, verifiable fact. It was withheld by Trump, acting on his own authority. That too is an undeniable, verifiable fact.So according to your evidence, not only did Trump not have the authority to withhold it (and of course that would mean that the aid was never officially held up because he was incapable of doing so)

LOL. Typical Ch doubletalk. Numerous people in Trump's administration kept asking who held it up and why, and not getting answers. Trump did something he had no authority to do, no right to do. But he did it anyway. He did it illegally.

but it was actually released by the State Department, meaning it was never his decision to make!

You are not that stupid, nor are we. Trump made an illegal, unethical, impeachable decision for the sake of his (he thought) own endangered political future, and it was only when it became clear to the State Department that he had no right to make such a decision and take such an action, that THEY released the funds.

So your argument just took a turn for the worse!

Really? It thought it was your perverse illogical thinking that left the rails.

If the State Department (not the President) was responsible for releasing the aid, then the State Department would be responsible (not the President) if it was not released in a timely fashion!

The State Department did not withhold the aid. Trump did. Illegally. The State Department, realizing he had done an illegal action, reversed it. They reversed HIS action, not THEIRS.

So apparently... you further ruined your own argument!

lol. Apparently not.

Not only did the President not withhold the funds!
But he couldn't withhold the funds because that was up to the State Dept!

Rather, he abused the power of his office by withholding the funds.

So how could he possibly be held responsible for something that he didn't do and (according to you) didn't even have authority to "pretend" to do?

LOL According to your erratic logic, no President, including Obama and including Nixon, could ever be held responsible for going beyond the authority of the Executive office, no matter what they did.

Thank you for further proving my point!!!!!

Thank you for appearing so obviously sycophantic!!!!!

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Democrats Unload ‘Overwhelming’ Impeachment Case
January 22, 2020 at 10:20 pm EST

“And on the first day, Democrats unleashed the flood,” Politico reports.

“One by one, the seven House impeachment prosecutors seeking President Trump’s removal from office reconstructed a case against the president so dense — at times, head-scratchingly complex — that it was hard for senators new to the material to keep up.”
_______________________

The New York Times called it “a meticulous and scathing case for convicting President Trump and removing him from office on charges of abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.”
____________________

The Washington Post reports Rep. Adam Schiff “gave an emotional closing, rehashing the facts of the case as presented over the last eight hours, urging senators to learn the ‘full truth’ and warning that the ‘truth is going to come out.'”

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Crickets from Ch.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Crickets.

Commonsense said...

You pleas for attention are pathetic pederest.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Ch's sudden silence is highly interesting.

C.H. Truth said...

I don't know what Obama did to Trump. I only know that you want to deflect from what Trump did by referring to the Bidens and Burisma, which I consider so irrelevant as to deserve no answer.

Sorry Reverend Hypocrisy of the Church of Dishonesty!

Of course you lost, admitted defeat, and continue to do so!!!

Reality!

What happened in 2016 is not irrelevant... IT HITS AT THE ENTIRE ISSUE!!!

You say IT'S A CRIME of some sorts to investigate someone who is running for President (even if they are not actually the nominee). You claim that asking for foreign assistance is election interference (of some sort).


Yet... that EXACT thing happened TO trump during the 2016 election after he actually became the nominee. The argument that you don't know what happened to Trump during the 2016 election, what happened to Carter Page, what happened to Paul Manafort, what happened to others who were placed under DOJ/FBI/FISA spotlight?

Well James... if you are really claiming that sort of ignorance... then you better god damned well look it up! There are about a million stories, documents, multiple IG reports, DOJ reports on the subject.

Bottom line is that you cannot "insist" that a non-investigation that never happened, and a foreign investigation that never happened to someone who isn't even the nominee... is somehow an impeachable crime...

When the actual investigation that did happen, and the actual foreign investigation that WAS requested, DID happen, and WAS leaked to the press into the ACTUAL Candidate for President...

apparently is perfectly acceptable to you?


The fact that you:

1) continuously do not explain your hypocrisy
2) demand that you know nothing about Trump being investigated.

Is both sad and amusing at the same time.


But what it CONTINUES to be is an ADMISSION OF DEFEAT

Part of being a grown up is not demanding you get your way on everything, and demand that you don't want to deal with the things that make you uncomfortable. Perhaps you just need to grow up a little?


Either way...

Until you show the courage to actually explain your hypocrisy... you remain in concession and a complete loser in this debate!

Thanks for making this so easy for me! You really are easy prey!

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Mere deflection makes YOU the easy prey, Ch,
for it is no answer to the central questions
of this impeachment trial.

WHO denied aid to Ukraine and when?*
WHO restored aid to Ukraine and when?

*And then lied about it.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Or better yet--

WHO denied aid to Ukraine and when and why?*
WHO restored aid to Ukraine and when and why?

*And then lied about it.

C.H. Truth said...

Sorry Reverend Hypocrisy!

Nobody denied Aid to Ukraine and it was never withheld. The Ukrainians got their military aid from the Trump administration (the State Department works for him) prior to any deadlines.

Something that never happened once under Obama. No military aid was ever approved, yet nobody back then demanded it was some sort of security threat that they didn't receive aid.

You can claim over and over and over that Ukraine was denied aid.

It is a factually incorrect statement that when repeated in the face of it being wrong simply becomes an outright lie!



So Reverend hypocrisy! Are you going to just "lie" about things today, while ignoring your own hypocrisy and not explaining why investigating a GOP candidate for President (and asking for foreign assistance)...

is not the same crime you seem to think it is when it's a Democrat being investigated!


Because without any further explanation from you!

The clear answer is that you are nothing more than a BLATANT HYPOCRITE who is so hypocritical that you don't even believe your hypocrisy needs an explanation.

Moreover, your hypocrisy CONTINUES to make you LIE about what actually happened in Ukraine and you continue to demand that some investigation that never took place had something to do with Aid that was released on schedule (but that you BLATANTLY DISHONESTLY continue to say was not released).



So you see James... I am just sticking to the FACTS HERE!

I refuse to accept your blatant LIES that fly in the face of reality!


And as long as your remain a HYPOCRITE, then you remain a loser!

Unknown said...

It's Maine
Of course they do. Trump is not opposed to witnesses. President Zelensky's appearance would shut the entire farse down and Schiff would shit. Collins would no longer be conflicted to vote for her re-election. She could vote honestly.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

"Nobody denied Aid to Ukraine and it was never withheld."

Run THAT past the historians, Ch.

And now go read what even the National Review is saying in your Bidens thread.

C.H. Truth said...

Okay Reverend Hypocrisy of the Church of Dishonestly!


Why don't you read what Mark Penn (Clinton aid) says about impeachment!

https://hotair.com/archives/ed-morrissey/2020/01/22/dems-must-end-sham-impeachment-says-former-clinton-adviser/


In the meantime... I will continue to bask in my outright debate victory on the previous subject! Since you are so far over-matched, that you are still are completely 100% unable to respond to ANY of it!


Just cutting and pasting, repeating the same drivel over and over. Sad, really!

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

WHEN THE NATIONAL REVIEW COMES OUT AGAINST YOU--

Impeachment Doesn’t Require a Crime

January 23, 2020 at 9:52 am EST

The National Review pushes back against one of the main arguments President Trump’s defenders have made in recent weeks: The idea that impeachment requires a crime.

“Senate Republicans, by and large, have reached an unspoken consensus about President Trump and Ukraine.
He should not have put a temporary freeze on congressionally authorized aid to Ukraine,
should not have dabbled with using the aid to get Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden or
a nutty theory about Ukrainian hacking during the 2016 election,
and should not have kept defending his ‘perfect call’ as such.

At the same time, his conduct does not merit his removal from office — especially since voters will get to pass judgment on that conduct in a few months.

“It’s a reasonable position, and it’s the case that Republicans ought to make in public. They are inhibited from doing so by the president’s obstinacy.
IOW, HE WANTS THEM TO DO WHAT CH IS DOING. LIE THAT HE DID NOT DO WHAT HE DID.

Instead of sticking to the most defensible case for a Senate acquittal of Trump, Republicans from the president on down are making arguments that range from the implausible to the embarrassing." BECAUSE RIDICULOUS.

HO HO HO So you are forced to lie WITH the liar.
History will not be kind, for as Schiff said, it will all come out.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

One of the best examples of what the National Review is talking about can be found in ChUNtruth's statement that "aid was not withheld." His arguments(?) here are a textbook example of the extent to which unprincipled Republicans are now willing to go to lie in sycophantic support of Trump's lies.

CH is even worse than those Republicans who admit they would really like to tell the truth but feel they can't because they think they have to support Trump.

C.H. Truth said...

Sorry Reverend Hypocrite from the Church of Dishonesty!


But the facts are the facts are the facts.

Ukraine got their military aid by the dates they were required to receive them by. Unlike 2016 where there was a HUGE international investigation into the GOP candidate for President - led by the Obama Administration... where was never any investigation into the Bidens!

History will judge the facts and the truth.

Democrats are impeaching the President for something that never actually happened... all because they "hate the bad orange man" and still cannot handle that he won the 2016 election.


btw... how can Democrats hope to win in 2020 if they cannot interfere in the election like they did in 2016 by spying on investigating, and leaking information about Trump?

That's the real rub here, Reverend Hypocrite! That Democrats cannot interfere "during" the campaign, so they are attempting to interfere by using impeachment as a political tool!

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

Something that "never happened"?... Ask the Ukrainians who kept wondering about the desperately needed funds which Congress had approved for them and asking why they were not receiving them. And then they started hearing what "favor" they absolutely HAD to do to receive those funds, and this they were told unmistakably and repeatedly by several of Trump's representatives, some like Giuliani sent outside the usual diplomatic channels and following his direct orders.

But do lie on.

C.H. Truth said...

Sorry Reverend Hypocrite from the Church of Dishonesty!


But we DID ask the Ukrainians! Democrats just don't believe them!

Zelensky and all of his aids demand that they didn't ever get any pressure to investigate the Bidens. Apparently they were happy to receive aid that they never once got from Obama.

When specifically asked, Zelensky state that nobody ever pushed him to do anything (much less made any threats or demanded anything in agreement).

“I never talked to the president from the position of a quid pro quo. That’s not my thing. I don’t want us to look like beggars."

How many times does Zelensky have to tell you that he was never under any pressure and that there was never any quid pro quo?

C.H. Truth said...

Furthermore the Ukrainian equivalent to our Attorney General (Ruslan Ryaboshapka) has never met with William Barr and is also on record as stating that our DOJ has never inquired or asked (much less demanded) anything in terms of any sort of investigation into the Bidens or even Burisma.

C.H. Truth said...

So Reverend Hypocrite from the Church of Dishonesty!


Their President and their chief prosecutor are both on record as not receiving any offers of quid pro quo, threats, or demands to investigate anything.

So once again Reverend Hypocrite from the Church of Dishonesty...

The FACTS don't back up your lame claims!

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

I'm not going to bother with you, Ch. You have your mind made up to believe certain talking points no matter what the evidence is, no matter what you see.

Want the truth?
No. But the truth is here in this Business Insider article (it's a bit long: it's not simplistic):

"Ukraine's President Zelensky said he didn't feel pressured by Trump. Here's why that's bogus."


https://www.businessinsider.com/zelensky-didnt-feel-pressured-by-trump-bogus-defense-impeachment-2019-11

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

This is only part of the article, the ending:

'The Ukrainians Were Very Concerned about the Security Assistance'

The efforts to pressure Zelensky into launching investigations went well beyond the July 25 phone call, including evidence that Trump used a White House meeting as leverage in addition to the security assistance.

Multiple witnesses in the impeachment inquiry, including Trump's handpicked US ambassador to the EU, Gordon Sondland, have testified under oath that B

Sondland testified that he indicated to a top aide to Zelensky that the release of military aid was conditioned on such an announcement. He also said there was an explicit quid pro quo linking the White House meeting Zelensky wanted with the investigations.

"I know that members of this committee frequently frame these complicated issues in the form of a simple question: Was there a 'quid pro quo'?" Sondland said. "With regard to the requested White House call and the White House meeting, the answer is yes."


With that said, the security assistance to Ukraine was eventually released, which Republicans have also pointed to as a sign Zelensky was not pressured.

But David Holmes, a top staffer in the US embassy in Ukraine, offered testimony undercutting this argument.


"Although the hold on the security assistance may have been lifted, there were still things they wanted that they weren't getting, including a meeting with the president in the Oval Office," Holmes said of Ukraine.

He added: "Whether the hold, the security assistance hold, continued or not, Ukrainians understood that that's something the president wanted and they still wanted important things from the president. So I think that continues to this day. I think they're being very careful. They still need us now going forward."

Taylor also testified that it would be viewed as a sign of weakness in Ukraine and damaging politically for Zelensky to admit to pressure from Trump.


The career diplomat and decorated US Army veteran said: "[Zelensky] cannot afford to be seen to be deferring to any — any foreign leader ... He knows that the Ukrainian people expect him to — to be clear and defend Ukrainian interests."

In another sign that Zelensky felt pressured, Taylor testified that Zelensky planned to announce the investigations on CNN, but pulled back AFTER the security assistance was released.

Taylor, who also served as the US ambassador to Ukraine from 2006 to 2009, said: "I know that the Ukrainians were very concerned about the security assistance, and I know that they were prepared or preparing to do — to make a public statement that is with a CNN interview, that that was being planned."

'Zelensky Was Indeed Feeling the Pressure'

Democratic Sen. Chris Murphy of Connecticut, who sits on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, met with Zelensky in September.

In a letter to House investigators, Murphy detailed a conversation he had with the Ukrainian president regarding his concerns over efforts from Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and others to urge him to become involved in domestic US politics.

Murphy wrote: "President Zelensky said he understood, and represented to us that he had no desire to interfere in a US election. I interpreted Zelensky's answer to my question as a concession of the premise of my question—that he was receiving improper overtures from Giuliani to interfere in the 2020 election."

The Democratic senator further said Zelensky "did not contradict the facts I laid out in my question, and instead simply relayed his desire to say clear of becoming enmeshed in American politics." Murphy added that he interpreted this as "confirmation that Zelensky was indeed feeling the pressure I described."

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

So now we can expect the usual irrational horse trotting from Ch.

C.H. Truth said...

Sorry the Reverend Hypocrite from the Church of Dishonesty!

But you are simply replacing another FACT

Which is that nobody from Ukraine has suggested that Trump or anyone else demanded any investigations...

with "speculation" from anti-Trumpers that has no actual tangible evidence to be seen as a fact.

Honest, decent, truthful Rev. said...

You are full of BS, and future revelations will make clear that that article is correct. Business Insider is a well respected blog.